Adam Smith's College

[asleepathewheel]

[heresy]

Is Hoover worth building on Stormia?
Is it worth the denial to Lego/Bob?

[heresy]

[Arrian]

I'd say so. It is mostly denial value, I admit, since most of our big shield producers are on rivers and thus can build Hydro Plants (Hurricane, EotS, Tempest, Arashi). 4 Hydro Plants = 800 shields, right? So that's breakeven, but we get free maintenance too, I believe.

But the denial value is a biggie. Imagine the value of Hoover to Lego, ND or GoW!

I think it's worth it if you think about what us building it will do to the "production gap" we face (mmm, thinking Strangelove now). That production gap is going to keep widening, EVEN IF we build Hoover. But if somebody else builds Hoover, we're facing a massive production gap.

THEY'RE STEALING OUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS! WE MUST CLOSE THE PRODUCTION GAP!!!

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Having said all that (or did I rave it, rather than say it?), ToE is the more important wonder for us. It will rocket us ahead in tech just as Lego's GA is finishing. We can then slow our research down and rush assist things (factories) and start worrying about fielding enough infantry and artillery to fend of amphibious assault.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Arrian

Lego, meanwhile, still don't have Physics. Even if they get it later this turn

They can't get it for another 2-3 turns. They only completed Navigation last turn. Also, we can't rule out the chances of them doing MT. They might want to intevene on Bob if it kicks off post-Cav, and do they have a sea wall on Vox? We don't know, but they must be paranoid about what's next.

[Arrian]

Ah, thanks for that Cort. They had Nav for the first time last turn (their T174)*. Assuming they went for Physics at 4 turn pace, they get that on T178. Mag +ToG at 4 each brings it to T186. Steam/Med + Elect + SM at 4 each (absolute worst-case) brings it to T198. Of course, getting Elec in 4 means pulling down over 800 beakers/turn. I bet it's more like 6 turns.... T200.

Hoo-ah. This one could be close.

-Arrian

* - their T174, since they play after us, we didn't see it until T175.

[vmxa1]

Maybe I am a dirty old man, but the picture made me thing of something other than an eye.

[asleepathewheel]

reminded me of a red x

[vmxa1]

I still see it has a very hard task for Lego to blockade all that land. So they may want calvs to get that extra move for defense as well as any option to get in on any Bobian war.

Steam (if they have coal) will take a long time to get up rails all around the key locations. They may feel it is too risky to by pass MT.

[Arrian]

Well, a combination of a few picket ships and their knights is probably enough to cover the coastline for now.

And they MUST have coal. Big continent, lots of jungle tiles. Yeah, I know, we should've had saltpetre based on the composition of our land, but our continent is little.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

I'd like to compliment the team re GW planning.

Sorry I haven't been around the last month, but man, lemme tell ya, you guys know that I am pretty familiar with the discussion history of things Civ3, and I have NEVER seen the intensity of thinking surrounding GW builds that is in this private forum!

Jesus, you guys made my head spin! To be honest, as I was trying to catch up anyways, I sorta gave up on all of the turn / beaker / 'RRs kick in' counts, and have just tried to get straight what we really want to snag and which are most likely when.

Heckuva job is what I say, heckuva job.

[DeepO]

just to make something clear which I'm sure you all know: every tile RRed is 1 spt more... before waste. I'm not sure if the city tile is automatically RRed, but I think so. Arashi would get 12 spt more I think (it has our FP), Tempest gets 10 or 11 spt more if fully improved. That means we get to those 25 spt figures easily, if enough workers are available (which becomes a problem, as we're too fast for our pumps).

It should be enough to ensure we get to Hoover once we build the ToE (oh, and as GoW, ND or Lego could have a palace prebuild going for 20 turns, this is far from certain). We should not detour to rubber, as the beaker cost of rep parts is a lot lower then atom theory. Lego cannot get to that tech in 4 turns, even in GA, and even if they have 2nd researcher cost... we're relatively safe there.

The rest of the discussion is going good, we should be first to research SM, and have a prebuild ready at that precise time, if we have enough workers... nobody should be able to compete here, if we give them 1 turn, we should anticipate losing it (to a GL even). There simply is no room for mistakes, we know that at least Lego has been planning wonder prebuilds all along...

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

It's only mines that give an extra shield.

Arashi is good for ToE - though I believe we'd be safe with Hoover in EotS, building up to 400s via GLib then another 10-11 turns post Electronics- as long as the war goes ahead and Lego are forced to divert.

I'd rather do that than sacrifice Newton to another Civ in Tempest.

[DeepO]

No it's not. For every RRed irrigated tile, one irrigation can be switched to a mine. Because in none of our cities more food is necessary (for the moment, before hospitals), every RR gives 1 spt. But, in case we have lots of irrigation, we need to change that to mines, at greater improvement cost, of course.

The only exceptions are in cities where we can't manage more mines, because of floodplains. But last I remembered, we don't have many of these cities... so every RR is one more spt. (before waste)

Sweet isn't it?

DeepO

[vmxa1]

That is the way to go (mine the irrigated tiles) when we can, but it will not be top priority in any cities, other than wonder builds.

I would think getting rails to all cities and around the island would come right after wonder cities. We could divert some workers to that purpose down the road (once we know no attack is coming for a while).

[DeepO]

IIRC, it is better efficiency wise to RR 2 irrigated grass or plains, and convert to a mine on one of them, then it is to RR 2 hills or mountains. Something to keep in mind when RRing.

Of course, wonder cities first, the rest later. And in between, a RR from South to North, to make sure we can transport what we want asap.

DeepO