Idea for a remote possibility for peace

[Shiber]

I'm not going to continue arguing if it turns personal.
I am in noone's side but the teams. I make decisions with what I think is the team's best interest in mind, and no other considerations.
Anyway, I've made myself clear - I am in favor of Nathan's plan as a concept. I do think that you make a good point regarding the usefulness of MedInfs as naval invaders and as units in general in the future, but I still support Nathan's concept for a plan. However, if the team rejects this concept then I won't argue anymore.

[nbarclay]

Sir Ralph, I think there may be a language issue here. My impression is that there is a fairly wide range of views regarding how well people feel like they need to know someone before they consider the person a "friend" rather than just someone they know. I see nothing inconsistent about Shiber's enjoying chatting with Eli occasionally but not classifying him as a friend; it all depends on where Shiber draws that line in his own mind.

The real question is whether Shiber's acquanitanceship with Eli is close enough to compromise his objectivity to any serious degree. I see no evidence that it is.

Regarding the value of Medieval Infantry, slow-movers in general seem far more valuable in MP than in SP. For knights to have a significant maneuver advantage over MedInfs, they would have to approach without the protection of pikes. That's a whole lot safer in SP than it is in MP. And MedInfs can do fine for helping to defend cities by counterattacking units that attack the cities. All in all, the idea of viewing MedInfs as throwaway units that we would be just as well off without appalls me.

Regarding the relative value of building vs. Nationalism, keep in mind that we would be either buying Nationalism at a fraction of its research cost or researching it at a last-researcher price not much if any over half the first-researcher price. So what would take eight turns to research in an SP game where we're in first place would take no more than four here, all else being equal. (Not that all else will necessarily be quite equal, given the larger militaries needed in MP.) And if we're getting Chieftain research prices instead of Emperor research prices, that would also create a skew toward significantly faster research times than we're used to from SP.

Further, the economic benefit of building instead of fighting is something we get now, and thus something we can leverage for medieval warfare if we get in a fight before the industrial era. In contrast, ensuring that Vox can't shaft us on Nationalism becomes relevant significantly later in the game.

Regarding whether other civs would honor NDAs with Vox even though the NDAs themselves are a violation of Vox's treaty obligations with us, that's an interesting issue. After all, the other teams would have to worry about whether if they don't violate it, one of their neighbors will, in which case the other civ would be the one to profit from selling us the tech.

And finally, the benefits of being able to shift back to building sooner are definite, while the risk of being shafted on Nationalism is merely possible. The average expected outcome of letting Vox evacuate to another location must take into account both the possibility that Vox will betray us again and the possibility that they won't.

Edit: not only do knights lose their ability to be covered by pikes if they take full advantage of their speed, but they also lose their ability to be covered by catapults - and to have those catapults break down city walls (if any) before the knights start attacking.

[Shiber]

One thing that I completely forgot: IMHO, the arguments against this plan regarding to Nationalism are completely irrelevant.
IMHO, there is no question whether Vox will survive after this war is over. If we don't let them survive, they will promise their bonus tech to Lego or RP and get a gifted city (we're not the only ones that noticed that Vox is scientific). Then we'd be handing over Nationalism to our enemies.
IMHO it's better to have a shot at getting Nationalism for free than to throw that chance away and let RP or Lego embrace Vox while holding with a knife at their throat and secure the bonus tech to themselves. One thing is certain - we cannot kill the last scientific civ through this war.

[nbarclay]

Shiber, whether we can kill Vox through this war depends largely on whether Vox would want to go on living under the kind of conditions you describe. If the ability we'd offer to have extra settlers makes it worth living for them when otherwise, they'd just as soon have us put them out of their misery, that could set up a situation where Sir Ralph's concerns are relevant.

Then again, even if Vox evacuates, there's no guarantee that they will survive through the end of the medieval era.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Sir Ralph, I think there may be a language issue here. My impression is that there is a fairly wide range of views regarding how well people feel like they need to know someone before they consider the person a "friend" rather than just someone they know. I see nothing inconsistent about Shiber's enjoying chatting with Eli occasionally but not classifying him as a friend; it all depends on where Shiber draws that line in his own mind.

I'm aware of the wide span of meanings of the word "friend". I consider myself a personal friend of some Apolyton posters, but not close enough to be their buddy, that may serve as example. However, the sentences "we're friends outside of the PTWDG" and "Eli is nowhere near my personal friend" contradict each other. With less good will I could even say, one of them is a lie. Hence my confusion.

What you say about the usefulness of medieval infantry may be valid, granted, and a lot also depends on terrain and how they are used. A medieval infantry plus a pikeman have the same stats as a knight and cost the same production-wise. But they cost double upkeep (which can sum up to dozens of gpt), do not retreat and move half as fast. Their only advantage over a knight is, that they need at least two attackers to be killed. The usage as extended city defenders, as you propose, is a good variant, but we don't need too many units for this purpose. At least it is not a reason to pay the upkeep for a large standing army of medieval infantry during the preparations. A small amount left over from the elimination of Vox will suffice. They are not the main assault units.

Re Nationalism: Even if we can research Nationalism cheaply, we still will lose at least 4 valuable turns in the race for the ToE.

[Shiber]

I'm assuming that if a civ would allow Vox to evacuate, they would guard Vox's city as if they were a coupon for getting Nationalism for free.
Still, you're right, there's no 100% guarantee.

[Harovan]

By the way, this discussion is futile. Vox will never agree to conditions like this, and it is far from sure that the other teams let them settle on their land.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber
I'm assuming that if a civ would allow Vox to evacuate, they would guard Vox's city as if they were a coupon for getting Nationalism for free.
Still, you're right, there's no 100% guarantee.

You mean the way Vox guarded Lux's city?

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I'm aware of the wide span of meanings of the word "friend". I consider myself a personal friend of some Apolyton posters, but not close enough to be their buddy, that may serve as example. However, the sentences "we're friends outside of the PTWDG" and "Eli is nowhere near my personal friend" contradict each other. With less good will I could even say, one of them is a lie. Hence my confusion.

Will you drop it already?

Sir Ralph, I am not a close friend of Eli. We speak on ICQ, but mostly because we have many things in common in the academic aspect of life, not because we like each other. I am his friend, but not a close friend (or a "personal friend", in the words that I previously used - there's a language issue here. Transitions from Hebrew to English can be difficult, they are from two separate branches of human language, you have no idea how different the two languages are).
Anyway, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough (since I'm not a native English speaker, it is my duty to make sure that what I say is clear and unambiguous to a reasonable level). But I think that you owe me an apology as well, for implying that I might betray the team, which I regard as a harsh insult of (prep?) my character.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by nbarclay
You mean the way Vox guarded Lux's city?

Let's not assume that the other teams can be as stupid as that.

[Theseus]

Cool it, guys.

Anyway, I agree with SR... if we are going to consider a "boat people" solution ( ), it won't make sense to offer it until Vox has at most 3 cities left.

BTW, I am not totally averse to this; sowing confusion on the rest of the world is a good thing.

[nbarclay]

If we wait until Vox has at most three cities left, we'll forfeit practically all the advantage we could get from such an arrangement in terms of changing to builder mode sooner. By the time Vox is down to three cities, we'll have more than enough forces to take those last three without building additional troops. Under those circumstances, I'd rather just finish Vox off (assuming they won't regard starting over with a single city as worthwhile).

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Shiber
But I think that you owe me an apology as well, for implying that I might betray the team, which I regard as a harsh insult of (prep?) my character.

I'm not thinking of apologizing for something I did neither say nor imply. At the countrary, I said as preamble very clear, that I do not accuse you to be illoyal or a Vox advocate. The word "Voxish" was used as synonym for "confusing", as explained in the same sentence. If I would accuse you to betray the team (which I do not, just to be clear), be assured, I would say it outright instead of resorting to insinuations.

I accept your explanation concerning your relation to Eli. Your apology was likewise unnecessary.

[Shiber]

Thanks, and sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Theseus]

Nathan, I'm just looking at the screenshot, so I can't count... if we take out everything up through Beta-by-the-Sea and Harry's Hideout, how many cities does that leave Vox?