Idea for a remote possibility for peace

[nbarclay]

Not all the votes are necessarily in, but it seems crystal clear that Vox will not be allowed to survive on our continent. That being the case, I've come up with a final offer that might work from our perspective:

1) Vox will hand over their catapults and disband all of their other military forces except for five immortals. They will allow up to two WCs to enter their territory to verify compliance and will keep their cities empty of forces while our inspectors visit.

2) We will give Vox 12 turns of peace to build and rush settlers and galleys to evactuate as much of their population as possible. With proper planning (and we could help with that), I think they could escape with at least five settlers and galleys to go with the immortals they're allowed to keep.

3) While Vox is rebuilding in whatever new home they can find (if any), we will supply Vox with whatever technologies we can without compromising our diplomatic or trade relations with other civs.

4) Vox agrees not to disband what's left of their cities after their building and pop rushing.

Such an agreement would greatly reduce the cost of our victory and allow us to use the last few turns of our GA for peaceful building. And it would let Vox escape with enough settlers to build almost as many cities as they have now, although building back to their current size and level of development would take a long time. I don't know whether Vox would be interested in staying in the game under such circumstances or whether they think they could find land they wouldn't be killed for settling on if they would be interested. But if they do want to stay in the game, this could give them a chance at developing into a halfway decent minor power eventually.

[OPD]

I think this is a great idea. Hell we could even build the stlrs for them.

What are the chances we could get them over to lego?

[nbarclay]

Settlers disband into workers when captured, so we could not simply build settlers for them. And building cities to gift to them, besides being something of an exploit, would be impossible to mask unless we could find Vox some land that no one else knows about. If Vox can't build enough settlers quickly enough, a better approach would probably be just to let them keep their last two or three cities longer. (Of course if Vox has a granary in The Voice, they have four-turn settler pump potential even without a GA or pop rushing; we'd just have to explain to them how to use it.)

[Harovan]

I don't think we should do this.

Firstly, an offer like this is very close to an insult. We can't afford this diplomatically, at least not yet. When they have 2-3 cities left, maybe.

And second, like Aeson pointed out, it is better to completely eliminate the only scientists in this game, or we might end up with a serious disadvantage, when we enter the industrial age.

[zeit]

I have this weakness- I just can't go ahead and deliver the "killing blow". I find it hard in personal life, and also in this game when playing against humans.

But I think Vox should be given a chance to stay in the game if they want to, without much of a trouble for us (except the Tech issue).

They might find some land to the North of Lego, though...

[Shiber]

We can add a clause that Vox will give us their bonus industrial tech, along with a commitment to normalized relations until that time.

[Harovan]

Vox can not be trusted.

[Shiber]

They're not bad people. They're not committed to lying. They were mainly just pushed into attacking us.
They've learned their lesson, that provoking and messing with us will only backfire. I'm inclined to include a clause that will state that Vox will have to give us their bonus industrial tech for free.

[Harovan]

I'm nearly crying.

I wouldn't trust again somebody, who already stabbed a knife in my back, even if he promised not to do it again.

Vox on our continent is a big security risk, not because they could attack again, but because they hold a grudge against us and might allow the massive landing of Bobian civs on their territory without us being able to do anything against that.

Vox on another continent is a security risk, because they can and will deny us Nationalism.

Shiber, since Eli is your personal friend, I can understand your feelings, but I would expect you to abstain in this discussion. I don't accuse you to be illoyal or a Vox advocate, you are certainly not, but your (wanted or unwanted) bias is too obvious. I would abstain, if it came to discussions concerning a war against ND, even though I'm practically inactive in the ISDG.

Vox delenda est. Hispania delenda est. Nothing else.

[Shiber]

Eli is nowhere near my personal friend, and I have no positive feelings toward Vox or any of its members in particular.

I think that you're being way too hawkish. There is much to gain from such an agreement - less casualties (possibly ~15 MedInfs and 5-10 pikes can be spared), getting Nationalism for free, being able to ready ourselves to strike at Spain by the time that the UUs come online and war on Bob begins.

[nbarclay]

The really huge gain from the proposed deal is getting about a five-turn golden age head start, maybe even more, on the entire Courthouse, Aqueduct, Harbor, Library, Marketplace build chain. That alone should provide us with benefits exceeding the market price of Nationalism even if Vox breaks its promise to give it to us. And we could make it part of our agreement with Vox that should they violate their commitment to provide us with Nationalism, no NDA they sign with any other team will be considered valid. Further, consider the relative advantage if we get Nationalism for free while other teams have to pay for it.

By the way, I view personal relationships with people on other teams as something potentially useful as long as players are careful to put our team's needs and interests first. Diplomacy is easier when you have some insight into the personalities and attitudes of the people you are dealing with.

[Aeson]

I think Vox would say 'yah you get Nationalism for free' with any peace treaty they agree to, and then we end up the only civ not getting it for free. Two of their motivations for attacking us was that they felt our border treaty wasn't fair and that our renegotiation of the tech sharing wasn't fair. I can't see that they'd find a 'you can have peace as long as you get off our continent' peace treaty as fair.

They sound like they are willing to give up Dissidentville... which isn't a concession at all. They've been pop rushing there, and it's probably all but useless for the next 20 turns. I'd rather they disband it. Inchon and Inchoff have for all intents and purposes claimed that land at this point anyways.

The only way I could see them working with us (ie. we get Nationalism, no one else does) is if we go to war with Bob to claim land for Vox, which we definitely shouldn't do.

[Harovan]

I spoke with Eli. We had a casual chat about school and finals (we're friends outside of the PTWDG) when he congratulated me for GS's success.

Eli is nowhere near my personal friend, and I have no positive feelings toward Vox or any of its members in particular.

Well, whatever you say... Though it's a bit confusing, or should I say, Voxish?

I think that you're being way too hawkish.

I am what I am.

There is much to gain from such an agreement -

Hmmm, let's see...

less casualties (possibly ~15 MedInfs and 5-10 pikes can be spared)

Who gives a damn? We had planned to kill them even before they attacked us, so now let's fulfill our destiny.

getting Nationalism for free

Which is far from being sure

being able to ready ourselves to strike at Spain by the time that the UUs come online and war on Bob begins.

One doesn't exclude the other. The weaker Vox gets, the less units we'll need. and the more we have to spare for other purposes.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Well, whatever you say... Though it's a bit confusing, or should I say, Voxish?

Whoa, crossed a line there buddy. I don't appreciate being compared to our obnoxious enemy.

I have a lot of things in common with Eli (we both major in the same subjects (computers and physics), we both applied for the same special programs in the military academic reserve etc'), but I don't think very highly of him.

Who gives a damn? We had planned to kill them even before they attacked us, so now let's fulfill our destiny.

I give a damn. I want to preserve those 10-15 medinfs and 5-10 pikes so we could use them against RP (we'll need everything that we can muster).

Which is far from being sure

As Nathan said, even if Vox won't keep their word (again) and won't deliver Nationalism, the value of using the rest of our GA for peaceful building equals or even exceeds that of Nationalism.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Shiber
Whoa, crossed a line there buddy. I don't appreciate being compared to our obnoxious enemy.

I am nobody's "buddy". And the best way not to be compared with Vox is not to behave like Vox, i.e. to say today the opposite from what was valid yesterday. I don't give a damn about your relations with Eli, but at least you should decide whether you are his friend or not.

I give a damn. I want to preserve those 10-15 medinfs and 5-10 pikes so we could use them against RP (we'll need everything that we can muster).

Medieval infantries aren't very good for invasions, they are too slow and give the enemy too many time to maneuver. They also don't retreat and aren't upgradable, at least to nothing useful. They are a waste of upkeep money and the best to do with them is to let them bonk some Voxian head.

As Nathan said, even if Vox won't keep their word (again) and won't deliver Nationalism, the value of using the rest of our GA for peaceful building equals or even exceeds that of Nationalism.

I wouldn't sign this. Nationalism is worth at least 4 turns research, and probably even more, since it is twice as expensive as a late medieval advance and with less land (or with many, but corrupt land) we won't be able to research it in 4 turns. The threat not to acknowledge any NDA means absolutely nothing, because I suppose that the potential sellers will acknowledge it. They will do all what hurts us.