Geheimes aus ND (Secrets from ND)

[DeepO]

back to the spreadsheets: if you've got many cities, I think they become too large and cumbersome to use. You simply can't keep foreseeing every single wf move over the next 10 turns, especially not if pollution comes into play. After a while it's just easier to try to think 2 or 3 turns ahead for each city, and have a general idea where you're heading.

It also has to do with our close city spacing: too many combinations to foresee in a spreadsheet format, you've got to play it out and try stuff.

DeepO

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DeepO
Apart from the UN prebuild off ND, it was a close race to the prebuild of GoW (Apollo, IIRC). We were speculating which of the two would win, even if we could inch just ahead by one turn

But as Krill said, it didn't matter in the end

DeepO

I don't remember what was our prebuild in Killdaria for the UN. It could not have been Apollo since we never demobilized after the Lego War. In the event ND beat us to the UN by one turn which forced us to switch back to the Manhattan Project.

And the only reason we built it in Killdaria is because it was supposed to be simbolic of unity (Killdaria was the old ND city of Dar-el-Killam), if not we could have built it in Imperial City or some other big-shield city and slashed some 2 turns in its build.

Oh well, the Manhattan Project was the warmongerish thing to build

[Krill]

So the mob bug was helping your prebuild in Killdaria?

[Master Zen]

what's the mob bug?

[DeepO]

Krill, I'm not sure they were helped by the mob bug. I don't think it's possible for a palace prebuild (palaces can't be built under mob, right?) If they used the Manhatten for a prebuild, there is a big chance they were, either with intent or not.

And yes, MZ, it only was one turn. We thought you were going for Manhatten, not the UN.

For those not in the know: there is a bug during mobilization that, if you've got wrong intent, can be used to gain the mob bonus when you're not entitled to it. It basically is the following: not all allowed builds during mob gain the bonus. However, Civ only checks whether it has to give the bonus or not whenever they governor suggests a new build, or whenever some terrain change (pollution, irr) happens.

During war, your governor will always suggest something defensive or offensive to build (e.g. tank), which receives the bonus. Now, after suggestion you can change this to e.g. a settler, and as the bonus is not checked again, you will gain it, as it still remembers the bonus setting from the tank. And it will keep on giving the bonus until either terrain has changed (pollution or improvement), or the next build is chosen by the governor.

There are some tweaks to it, but basically it can give a GA for a limited number of buildings if you have a partner where you can declare war-peace to on every occasion you want. This includes prebuilds, I thought. We ran into to it about once every turn, where we improved terrain after the build selection to delete the bonus where we weren't supposed to get it, and to get it where we weren't.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Master Zen
In the event ND beat us to the UN by one turn which forced us to switch back to the Manhattan Project.

MZ, if you want, I can check how many tiles difference there was. It was less than a turn (but we were still ahead of you both )

DeepO

[Master Zen]

AFAIK mobilizations cuts down on the improvements you can build and those which are left are those which can receive it. Both the Manhattan Project and (surprisingly) the UN appeared on our mobilized city builds list. The old obsolete wonders like the GL and Oracle did not niether did any of the small wonders.

Anyway, to be honest, GoW never thought this was actually a bug. We deliberately switched to mobilization on both occasions while on peacetime builds to finish them off quickly but we knew quite well that mobilization was to last until we were legitimately offered peace, in this case our first mobilization lasted until Lego/RP were killed, and our second mobilization lasted until GS was killed.

We thought GS also used the same tactic since I recall you also mobilizing while still doing some peacetime builds. I had no clue that was both a bug and that tile imporvements corrected it. Furthermore I also recall GS de-mobilizing without having received a peace treaty (to build the Internet I'm sure) in-game. A fake war with RP perhaps?

[Krill]

Nope, the Internet can be built in Mob. Any wonder that is Militeristic (and the internet has every attribute, as it triggers every civs GA) can be built in mob.

[Master Zen]

Yet you did de-mobilize without a peace treaty. On the turn we nuked you we calculated GS's industrial production in the 500-shield range, something which was definitely not mobilized.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Yet you did de-mobilize without a peace treaty. On the turn we nuked you we calculated GS's industrial production in the 500-shield range, something which was definitely not mobilized.

But you nuked them only after we were killed off, no? GS would be auto-demobilized then.

[DeepO]

MZ, it's not about building peaceful buildings in mob, that always has been possible. But, for the UN for instance, you're not supposed to get the bonus.

If you start to build this wonder during mob, you've got a good chance you hit the bug: if you select the build from the little window, the governor most likely had suggested a tank or so. After that screen is displayed, the bonus isn't checked again, so you keep receiving the bonus even after changing the build orders to the UN. If you would be hit by pollution in that city, however, the bonus is rechecked again, and your spt is adjusted as it is a building which is not supposed to get extra shields.

You can exploit this: If you switch any city to a tank, you can improve some terrain (e.g. irr+mine) so the city gets the bonus. After that, change the build to a wonder, and you get too many spt.

As to us declaring war just to get out of mob for one turn: I'm not sure anymore, you've got to ask Aeson. But it's possible we did this a while after the Lego war ended. We felt that because in normal circumstances Lego wold have been gone it should be allowed. We did it at most once, though, never during the buildup to the Lego war. Our mob was timed so all our peacetime-buildings were started before hitting the button. And believe me, in some of the cities this hurt as I would've loved an extra market or lib.

DeepO

[Aeson]

The first crash involving Lego's "elimination" from the game was when Zargon X tried disbanding their final Settler in 1310AD, their turn. At that point, it was a bug that kept us in mobilization.

We had a fake war with RP to get around that bug once it became clear Lego weren't going to be able to be eliminated due to the bug. RP declared war in 1330AD, their turn, and we made peace in 1335AD, our turn.

We had talked about using a fake war before then. If Lego were to go into hiding to keep us from de-mobilizing. Personally, I see no problem with fake war declarations. There were no rules against it, and the precident in this game had been set long ago.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DeepO
MZ, it's not about building peaceful buildings in mob, that always has been possible. But, for the UN for instance, you're not supposed to get the bonus.

If you start to build this wonder during mob, you've got a good chance you hit the bug: if you select the build from the little window, the governor most likely had suggested a tank or so. After that screen is displayed, the bonus isn't checked again, so you keep receiving the bonus even after changing the build orders to the UN. If you would be hit by pollution in that city, however, the bonus is rechecked again, and your spt is adjusted as it is a building which is not supposed to get extra shields.

You can exploit this: If you switch any city to a tank, you can improve some terrain (e.g. irr+mine) so the city gets the bonus. After that, change the build to a wonder, and you get too many spt.

As to us declaring war just to get out of mob for one turn: I'm not sure anymore, you've got to ask Aeson. But it's possible we did this a while after the Lego war ended. We felt that because in normal circumstances Lego wold have been gone it should be allowed. We did it at most once, though, never during the buildup to the Lego war. Our mob was timed so all our peacetime-buildings were started before hitting the button. And believe me, in some of the cities this hurt as I would've loved an extra market or lib.

DeepO

I'll have to check but IIRC we used the Manhattan Project as a prebuild for the UN, we only switched to the UN the 3 turns before it was supposed to be built since the MP has less shields (800 vs 1000). Then when ND beat us to it, we switched back.

I'm not sure if this triggered the bug, to be honest I still don't quite understand what it is. What I can assure you is that the turn build never changed, i.e. it took 12 turns more or less to build the UN in Killdaria from the start. Also whatever changes to the build in that city were done by right-clicking on the map.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Aeson
The first crash involving Lego's "elimination" from the game was when Zargon X tried disbanding their final Settler in 1310AD, their turn. At that point, it was a bug that kept us in mobilization.

We had a fake war with RP to get around that bug once it became clear Lego weren't going to be able to be eliminated due to the bug. RP declared war in 1330AD, their turn, and we made peace in 1335AD, our turn.

We had talked about using a fake war before then. If Lego were to go into hiding to keep us from de-mobilizing. Personally, I see no problem with fake war declarations. There were no rules against it, and the precident in this game had been set long ago.

You do however understand the exploitish possibilities from fake wars to trigger/untrigger mobilization? Any team could have made fake wars to speed up peace time builds by constantly declaring war/making peace.

I think this is another big precedent that needs to be cleared up in future DGs.

[Krill]

If you accept a peace treaty, you lose the mob bonus before the shields are calculated. Therefore you can not constantly exploit it, but you can set everything on a largish prebuild (tank just about works, MA is slightly better, preferably a battleship), and change it at a certain point. It would take alot of MM and calculation, but it can be done.

Something like this should be outlawed in the other Demogames, PTWDG2, C3CDG, and the future CIVDG, maybe something like any builds that have shields accumulated from mob can only be changed to certain builds (eg tank, inf, destroyer, bomber, worker and settler etc)