Game Discussion IV

[asleepathewheel]

In recognition of the victory, and the tremedous effort that went into this game, I have voted for MZ and Darekill to the Poly Hall of Fame. They deserve it


(and my third vote was for Aeson for work inside and outside the ptwdg)

[Hot_Enamel]

Yep good call sleepy

[Darekill]

Why wait for the Fora to be open.
Here is the exact text of the B.I.T.C.H. which is written in our history books and also as a copy is in the hands of Trip.



GLORY OF WAR - NEU DEMOGYPTICA Allianz zum Sieg (A.Z.S.)

1)Die Nationen "Glory of War (GoW)" und "Neu Demogyptica (ND)", vereint durch eine gemeinsame Geschichte und gemeinsame Wurzeln in den heiligen Land Bob/Borconia, präsentieren hiermit die Ausrufung einer Allianz für den Rest des Spieles, mit dem ultimativen Ziel eines gemeinsamen Sieges mit allen möglichen Mitteln.

a) Zwei Nationen, ein Reich
Hinfort arbeiten die Staaten GoW und ND zusammen wie ein einziges Gebilde. Dies fordert eine Zusammenarbeit in jedem und allen Aspekten des Spiels.

b) Technische Kooperation - GoW und ND können gemeinsam forschen wenn es von beiden Seiten als notwendig angesehen wird. Technologien die von einem der Partner erforscht werden auf Wunsch dem anderen Partner ohne Kosten weiter gegeben.

c) Luxus und Resourcen Handel - GoW und ND werden mit einander alle Luxusgüter teilen die im Überschuß vorhanden sind. Jede Nation wird die andere Nation mit jeder strategischen Resource versorgen die sie selbst mehr als einmal besitzt und über die, die andere nicht verfügt. Für den Fall das eine Resource für beide Nationen nur einmal vorhanden ist, wird diese Resource nach absprache so geteilt das sie für beide Nationen nutzbar ist.

d) Arbeiter Hilfe - GoW und ND können einander um Hilfe von überschüssigen Arbeitern ersuchen um für die andere Nation Felder zu bearbeiten.

e) Gemeinsame militärische Verteidigung - GoW und ND werden automatisch einander zu Hilfe eilen wenn sie von einer anderen Macht angegriffen werden. Offensive militärische Operationen können gemeinsam unternommen werden sind aber nicht durch dieses Abkommen erzwungen. In allen anderen Fällen wird direkte oder indirekte militärische Zusammenarbeit wärmstens Empfohlen.

2) Gemeinsame Siegeserklärung
GoW und ND erklären hiermit die Absicht eines gemeinsamen Sieges, durch alle möglichen Mitteln. Unter den Umständen die das Spiel in seinen Verlauf bietet, werden beide Teams so zusammenarbeiten, dass ein Sieg entweder durch GoW oder ND mit voller Unterstützung des anderen erreicht wird. Sobald eine Partei den Sieg erreicht hat, wird diese Sieges Erklärung veröffentlicht und beide Seiten werden zum Sieger erklärt.

3) Gemeinsames Auftreten
GoW und ND werden die ihnen zur Verfügung stehenden Mittel der Kommunikation nutzen, um gemeinsam ihre diplomatische, ökonomische und militärische Politik mit anderen Teams abzusprechen. Eine Diskussion bezüglich der Details dieser Politik mit anderen Teams wird angeregt, wobei es keine Geheimnisse zwischen den Teams geben darf. Nichtsdestotrotz soll alles getan werden um von den anderen Teams nicht als Allianz erkannt zu werden.

4) Austausch über Spielinformation
Beide Seiten teilen die Informationen über ihr jeweiliges Reich mit dem anderen Partner. Dies schließt Detais über Zugprotokolle, Screenshots und F1-F11 Daten mit ein.

5) Geheimhaltungs Klausel
Diese Allianz soll von GoW und ND bis zum Ende des Spiels geheim gehalten werden wenn die gemeinsame Siegeserklärung von beiden Seiten veröffentlicht wird. Ohne volles Einverständniss beider Seiten sollen keine Details über diese Allianz sollen offenbart werden.

6) Änderungen und Ergänzungen
Dieser Vertrag kann, mit Ausnahme der gemeinsamen Siegeserklärung, im gegenseitigen Einverständniss geändert und ergänzt werden. Es darf allerdings kein Allianzende vereinbart werden. Der Vertrag muß durch Abstimmung beider Teams verabschiedet werden um in Kraft zu treten.

7) Zusätzliche Klausel (optional)
Beide Seiten verpflichten sich, sich regelmäßig Freitags zu treffen um über Essen, Frauen, sowie Fußball? und das Spiel zu diskutieren.


Gezeichnet:

Darekill
Ministerpräsident von Neu Demogyptica





GLORY OF WAR - NEU DEMOGYPTICA ALLIANCE FOR VICTORY (A.F.V.)

The nations of the Glory of War (GoW) and Neu Demogyptica (ND), united by a common history and shared roots in the sacred land of Bob/Borconia hereby present this declaration of an alliance to last for the remainder of the game, with the ultimate objective of a joint victory by any possible means.

1) Two Nations, One Empire
Henceforth the empires of GoW and ND shall work together as a single entity. This will require cooperation in any or all aspects of the game.

a) Technological Cooperation: GoW and ND may perform joint tech research when it is deemed necessary by both sides. Technologies researched by any side will be shared with the other on demand at no cost.

b) Luxury and Resource Trading: GoW and ND will share with each other all luxuries which are found in surplus. Each nation will also provide to the other any resources which it poseses more than once and the other one does not possess. In case that there is a resource which is available only once for both nations,it will be shared after consultation so that it can be used for both nations.

c) Worker Assistance: GoW and ND may ask for the assistance of surplus workers from the other nation for tile improvement.

d) Joint Military Defense: GoW and ND will automatically come to the other's assistance if attacked by an outside power. Offensive military operations may be conducted in unison but are not bound by this treaty. In other cases, direct or indirect military collaboration is strongly suggested.

2) Joint Victory Statement
GoW and ND hereby declare their intention of a joint victory, by whatever means possible. Under the circumstances presented as the game progresses, both teams will work together so as to allow a victory by either GoW or ND with full assistance from the other. Once victory is attained by either side, this joint victory statement will be made public with both sides being considered the game winners.

3) Common Front
GoW and ND will use their available means of communication to coordinate in unison their diplomatic, economic and military policies with other teams. It is encouraged to discuss the details of these policies by both nations, with no secrets held by either side. Nevertheless extra effort will be made not to appear as an alliance to the other teams.

4) Game Info Sharing
Both sides may share information about their empire with the other. This includes details on turn reports, images of each nation, and F1-F11 data.

5) Secrecy Clause
This alliance will be held secret between GoW and ND until the end of the game, upon which the Joint Victory Statement will be made public by both sides. No details of this alliance may be disclosed without the full consent of both sides.

6) Ammendments
This declaration may be amended with the consent of both sides except for the Joint Victory Statement. No termination clause may be amended. This declaration must be approved by voting by the members of both teams in order to take effect.

7) Extra Clause (Optional)
Each side will meet regularly on Fridays to discuss food, women and football? and the game.


Signed:

Master Zen
Emperor of The Glory of War

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
In recognition of the victory, and the tremedous effort that went into this game, I have voted for MZ and Darekill to the Poly Hall of Fame. They deserve it


(and my third vote was for Aeson for work inside and outside the ptwdg)

I am honored but I think the vote should go to people who have really done something for this site. I was just lucky to be in the right team at the right time. Plus I played under the company of giants and they all deserve recognition. But thanks anyway

[Theseus]

You have done something huge for this site, MZ. Controversy or not, I applaud you, and all of the other worthies in this past contest.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Theseus


C'mon, H_E... while the last few days of posts have been, uh, argumentative, the attitude is unnecessary.

Although I quoted Deepo, I wasnt actually singling him out. Apologies...
But you don’t have to look too far to see what I was talking about.

[Master Zen]

btw I rather shocked that I didn't think of this before:

Do the existance of "vassal states" like Vox and Roleplay count as "rule breaking" tactics? Because you know, they didn't really follow the win-by-the-rules strategy by expecting to ride the coattails of their protectors to victory with no intention of achieving a single victory for themselves (and yet actively affecting the game by directly assisting their protectors).

I think any critique over the mechanics of a shared victory must also take into account a critique over an "assisted victory" as would have likely happened if either Lego or GS won since both strategies strayed from the standard game victory conditions. Guess both sides didn't really play by the book when you look at it this way.

[notyoueither]

That would be an argument to mount.

The only problem with it is that the Voxodus and the RP move to Stormia were public knowledge.

[Aeson]

Just to be clear, I don't think ND or GoW broke any rules. I certainly don't think any of the alliances in the game were breaking any rules.

The issue with vassal states is a valid concern. But is it actually a problem, and if so, how to address it?

All teams in this game were, at one point or another, in a position where they weren't the team that looked to be in the best position to win. Should a team in a position that is unlikely to lead to a win have to just stop playing altogether so as not to assist someone else's victory? What point is "unlikely" unlikely enough to warrant their removal from the game? The in-game ruleset for governing this is when there is no chance to win, the team is removed. They are synonymous. I think that works fine.

As for the validity of the agreements themselves...

GS and RP had an agreement in place where RP was to support GS for the rest of the game as best it could in repayment for GS doing what it could to try to help RP. GS had a reason to try to keep RP in the game, gaining a potential supporter for the rest of the game. RP had a reason to offer what they did, keeping from being eliminated, and the possibility of becoming a thriving nation again. Would RP have ever turned on GS if the opportunity presented itself? I don't know. They agreed not to, they honored that agreement, but obviously agreements can be broken. In any case, RP still had the chance to make their own decisions about how to act.

That is the sovereignty of a team. The team gets to decide what is in their best interest. As long as that sovereignty isn't compromised (ie. another team playing their turns), then they are still a viable team working in their own best interest. I see no problem with that. Just as I see no problem with teams deciding to ally or help each other for any reason. The problem would be limiting team's sovereignty over it's decisions, not allowing it.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Master Zen
btw I rather shocked that I didn't think of this before:

Do the existance of "vassal states" like Vox and Roleplay count as "rule breaking" tactics? Because you know, they didn't really follow the win-by-the-rules strategy by expecting to ride the coattails of their protectors to victory with no intention of achieving a single victory for themselves (and yet actively affecting the game by directly assisting their protectors).

I think any critique over the mechanics of a shared victory must also take into account a critique over an "assisted victory" as would have likely happened if either Lego or GS won since both strategies strayed from the standard game victory conditions. Guess both sides didn't really play by the book when you look at it this way.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=47115

[Krill]

That is one old thread...

My view on vassals would have to be something along the lines of either not allow them, or allow them, but simply disallow a joint victory.

The advantage of allowing them is that it is possible to make use of land that would other wise be useless, and that you would have another vote in the UN.

Look at RP, the only way GS could have made use of their land was to place the FP in Elipolis. We had no chance of making that land productive otherwise. Lego had no way of making Voxtavia producive full stop, simply because of the sheer size of their continent.

And if the ISDG had carried on to a UN vote, without any other team being killed, Poly would have won simply as we had more allies. It would be the cheesiest way to win, no doubt, that (SOME) people would detest it though...

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Theseus

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=47115

Yeah... Too bad neither of you READ, or at least FOLLOWED that thread...

1. Dead - Sometimes you just have to do it. Their land is to good... or their empire is "inconvenient"... or you want to reduce your battlefront to just one or two borders... something. An important note here: Left over from Civ2, there's an almost automatic compulsion to clear your continent of foreigners... DON'T (at least not yet... read the rest of the post). Much more interesting and useful to leave them in place for other purposes, as below.

Nope, Lego nore GS killed the teams in question...

2. Vassal - It's a lot of fun being a bully. Beat'em up, intimidate, and you'll be able to extort what you want every 20 turns, or, failing that, just punish'em again and extort for peace (that's a lovely phrase). Vassals need to be left relatively healthy, and able to trade for techs with the other AI civs. A tough balancing act, but the good news is that vassals can be on other continents. Especially valuable later in the game, when you can be militarily strong enough to pull off a punitive intercontinental invasion.

Neither was left healthy enough to make a very significant impact (other than perhaps a UN vote).

3. Punching bag - My personal favorite. I was in the US Marines, and we considered the Navy squids "training tools." These civs are for promotions and GLs exclusively. I want to beat them down to the point where they represent NO threat, but are healthy enough (and pissed enough) to send a steady stream of obsolete units my way. First, I want these guys ON my continent. Second, I will selectively deny them the resources to build resources for up-to-date, threatening attack units. Third, I'll orchestrate strategic alliances with every other AI civ I can, so they never get any help (actually, every civ on OTHER continents, so they get no help nor am I at risk of someone taking them out). Last, I'll decide the fields of battle... control all the high ground, and make sure that their only approaches are kill zones. When I take out their cities, I rarely capture and usually raze... keeps'em weak, and creates a heck of a warzone.

*cough* RP But, neither Lego nor GS utilized this.

4. Client - A relatively weak civ that you can sell techs and old strategic resources too. I haven;t really created any of these, but they just seem to always be around.

So...did you really 'sell' anything to them? Was it worth it? Either of you? I doubt it.

Vox made more sense IMO than the RP decision, though. Lego needed to take some heat off their lone big landmass at the time. Good PR move. I'm really missing what RP added to GS.

5. Lesser-developed nation - Meta-game concept. Help out the weak and far away, in order to harry the other world powers. Or just to watch glorious MPP-driven world wars.

GS attempted this in the first RP war. Came close. Had you closed off that initial rider force, could have been a very different game...

That leaves:

6. World power - Not so much military threats, in that during early oscillating war you should have made all immediate neighbors into any of 1 through 5. These are the bad boys who might beat you to the punch in domination or the space race.

Of which there are 2.

[Krill]

Nope, Lego nore GS killed the teams in question...

Killed Vox. RP was the answer to our FP problem. We had knaff all land up north (compared to the south, which was not all that good itself). RP up north gave us someone so weak that if we had been attacked we could of wiped them out, but strong enough to aid us financially.

So...did you really 'sell' anything to them? Was it worth it? Either of you? I doubt it.

Vox made more sense IMO than the RP decision, though. Lego needed to take some heat off their lone big landmass at the time. Good PR move. I'm really missing what RP added to GS.

We must of got at least 5000 gold of RP. At least.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Over how many turns? Is that gold that you would have gotten from the tiles anyway?

I'm really curious just HOW MUCH it benefited having the extra team there vs just using the tiles.

edit: Though iirc, we had calculated you had ALREADY built your FP down south?

True?

Did this play into the decision? (it would make more sense to me, then, yes)

With an FP up north, I really can't see much benefit from keeping RP.

And, how much of that gold was up front at the start of the Bobian war. You would have gotten that whether you kept them or not.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Krill

Nope, Lego nore GS killed the teams in question...

Killed Vox.

Funny, here I thought they were still in the game.