Game Discussion IV

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by notyoueither
The Lego war would have gone quite a bit differently had we known this cheese was on the table.

I can't believe you guys didn't suspect such a thing was already in place or at least that we were using you as pawns to get rid of Lego and that you'd be next. What team in their right minds would forgo the opportunity to crushingly defeat their neighbor who has 90% of their army overseas? It was SO obvious that some of us even feared that it would be a giveaway to our intentions.

You were duped big time.

Regardless of this, a written assurance on ND's behalf that they'd be neutral would have sufficed for us as ND had many chances to wipe us out before and never did and had honored all previous agreements with us. And had Trip deemed a shared victory illegal we would have probably agreed to something like "we wouldn't fight amongst ourselves until all other non-Bobian teams are destroyed first". In either case nothing would have changed for Lego or GS.

Why are you whining about people not going along with your secret rules change?

Because there was no rules change. Deal with it.

[Master Zen]

Btw, regarding cheesy tactics, we both honestly thought that winning by RoP-rape would be the ultimate in cheese and that we would get no respect from anyone else if the winner won that way.

And proof that other teams probably though via similar lines is that it was our main excuse regarding ND's neutrality during the Lego War. "ND would not dare to RoP-rape us because it would be the biggest slimeball tactic and they are too honorable to do that". It worked since you all bought the excuse thus indirectly implying you considered RoP-raping equally cheesy as us.

[Theseus]

Let us all agree to disagree.

I *still* say this was a game well played, and as intense and interesting as any that I know.

We, on this thread, are among the stalwarts... is there any question that we will be around for Civ4?

I throw a gauntlet down: nye has already hinted in our private forum at the next generation of Gathering Storm... let us settle our differences on the next map, the next Civilization.

(... with better defined rules! )

/me throws his glass into the fireplace, and raises a cheer for all!

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Master Zen


I can't believe you guys didn't suspect such a thing was already in place or at least that we were using you as pawns to get rid of Lego and that you'd be next. What team in their right minds would forgo the opportunity to crushingly defeat their neighbor who has 90% of their army overseas? It was SO obvious that some of us even feared that it would be a giveaway to our intentions.

You were duped big time.

Yup, you got us there. We were playing the game that we all started out in years ago.

It didn't occur to us that two teams would bastardise a project that 100s of people had sunk years into.

Congratulations, you won. I am not disputing that. What I would dispute would be the the value of what you have won.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Theseus
Let us all agree to disagree.

I *still* say this was a game well played, and as intense and interesting as any that I know.

We, on this thread, are among the stalwarts... is there any question that we will be around for Civ4?

I throw a gauntlet down: nye has already hinted in our private forum at the next generation of Gathering Storm... let us settle our differences on the next map, the next Civilization.

(... with better defined rules! )

* Theseus throws his glass into the fireplace, and raises a cheer for all!

Well said T

I for one look forward for the first Civ4DG among us. I do not know if it will result in a reincarnation of these teams for various reasons though:

1 - Availability. Perhaps not everyone will be active enough then. For example, there is no GoWer right now besides myself who could conceivably take charge of the team for anything other than a temporary stretch.

2 - Reputation. Like it or not, I feel that many of the grudges will carry on from this game to the next if we repeat our teams and our lineups.

Still, I'm sure we'll find a way to make a great new serious demogame with most of us here present. Heck, maybe we should have some sort of "draft" like they do in the major leagues...

-MZ

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Congratulations, you won. I am not disputing that. What I would dispute would be the the value of what you have won.

A half-victory for GoW is all I can claim.

Considering that for most of this game our odds of victory were 0%, I'm more than happy for that as is all of my team.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Given that, I think the optimal solution for the sake of egality will be to vote for... Vox. That way I can snicker whenever you say that Vox won the PTWDG

Sounds good to Vox. But why would you be snickering?

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Theseus
Let us all agree to disagree.

I *still* say this was a game well played, and as intense and interesting as any that I know.

We, on this thread, are among the stalwarts... is there any question that we will be around for Civ4?

I throw a gauntlet down: nye has already hinted in our private forum at the next generation of Gathering Storm... let us settle our differences on the next map, the next Civilization.

(... with better defined rules! )

* Theseus throws his glass into the fireplace, and raises a cheer for all!

Vox has already talked about the "next demogame" in Civ4 having a revamped Vox Controli team. And this time the team won't be so wishy-washy when going after GS....not if I have anything to say about it at least.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
Vox has already talked about the "next demogame" in Civ4 having a revamped Vox Controli team. And this time the team won't be so wishy-washy when going after GS....not if I have anything to say about it at least.

SLAPSLAPSLAP

Did I just read that correctly? You smacked your glove across my face?

Bastard!!

Yes, sir, I take your knavedly challenge!

(and I have a better relationship with Soren and Trip, so you are screwed)

[asleepathewheel]

Well, we had Soren on our team this go-round, and look where it got us.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Well, we had Soren on our team this go-round, and look where it got us.

And GWT whooped Firaxis' ass in the ISDG.

Moral of the story: Firaxis might be good at making the game, but they suck at actually playing it.

YEAH TRIP I'M TALKIN' TO YOU LOLOLOLOL OMFG!!!!!!!11!1!11!! >_<

[asleepathewheel]

Soren didn't actually post anything substantive-he just lurked and observed what we were doing.

Hopefully the betatesters can play with as much vigor and scrutinize cIV as much as we did this game. How many crashes and bugs? Granted, a few from the multiple patches, but there were more wrinkles than just that...

[Theseus]

Kudos, Trip, for the getting the job...

But, as MZ points out, we gonna be smackin' you around...

[Rhothaerill]

First Trip has to see if there are any teammates from Lux left still. Not that it really matters if there aren't.

And to Theseus...I'll take that challenge.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I can't believe you guys didn't suspect such a thing was already in place or at least that we were using you as pawns to get rid of Lego and that you'd be next. What team in their right minds would forgo the opportunity to crushingly defeat their neighbor who has 90% of their army overseas? It was SO obvious that some of us even feared that it would be a giveaway to our intentions.

You were duped big time.

Don't confuse "duping" someone with having them in a corner.

We knew GoW and ND were in it for the long haul after our chat where the NAP was signed. An alliance to be the last two in the game was pretty obvious. Why do you think we sided with RP?

We knew we had to intervene on Bob to favor the small end of the 2v1, or at least be the one claiming the "1's" territory, as if GoW and ND split Bob, one of you would win. GS and Lego had a chance at that point to form the alliance to deal with GoW and ND, but we didn't get it done. After Lego sided with GoW and ND against GS, GS saw no option but to try to play 3rd fiddle and hope a rift broke out between GoW and ND. The hope was that one of you would prefer the "little guy" on another landmass as your end opponent rather than the "big guy" neighbor.

If instead GS didn't go along with GoW and ND against Lego, the view was that it would be Lego going along with GoW and ND against GS. Remember GS didn't even have Rubber. Riflemen? Not much of a choice there for us. We were obsolete without an ally. Whether there was a chance to have Lego as that ally or not I'm not sure. I wasn't there during that period, and haven't read through the threads in that timeframe.

As for whether GS considered shared victory between ND and GoW, we did discuss it once. It was dealing with a phrase in a message to GoW, and we decided to leave it out because we felt it would be insulting to even hint at as something GoW would consider. This was when GoW was still proclaiming neutrality. So if you want to know our untainted view of shared victory, that is it.

Regardless of this, a written assurance on ND's behalf that they'd be neutral would have sufficed for us as ND had many chances to wipe us out before and never did and had honored all previous agreements with us. And had Trip deemed a shared victory illegal we would have probably agreed to something like "we wouldn't fight amongst ourselves until all other non-Bobian teams are destroyed first". In either case nothing would have changed for Lego or GS.

I am with you on this point. There probably wouldn't have been much difference in what happened to GS and Lego if ND and GoW had to look towards eliminating each other afterwards.

Btw, regarding cheesy tactics, we both honestly thought that winning by RoP-rape would be the ultimate in cheese and that we would get no respect from anyone else if the winner won that way.

While RoP rape (forced due to not being able to cancel treaties) would definitely be cheesy (regular RoP rape is debateable, I personally have no problem with it, and find it less than useful in most cases anyways), it could be easily circumvented.

Simply declare war before entering enemy territory. No more RoP. Problem solved. Then a few Settlers would have had pretty much the exact same effect. I think all but 3 of ND's cities were reachable by "rolling Tank" from GoW with just 3 Settlers.