War Weariness.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Master Zen
To be honest, this thread really caught me off guard....etc.

hm....

Should I even enter the PRIVATE forum....

[UnOrthOdOx]

I mean, we are waaaaay beyond roleplay here, so that ain't it.

Are we?

I highly recommend you don't play any roleplaying games with me then. I often get in a mood early and play that mood the rest of the game whether my real feelings change or not.

Normally, I would have a seperate character for that sort of thing, but a DL would be breaking rules here...

/me starts singing

I am evil UnO, I am evil UnO [/simpsons]

[UnOrthOdOx]

Well, you've agreed to partition land with ND, right? So its not THAT hard for you to give land away, eh? Just a matter of what the long term strategy is.

Ok...

We already share land with ND. It's entirely a different matter to give a foreign nation land on your own continent.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


Ok...

We already share land with ND. It's entirely a different matter to give a foreign nation land on your own continent.

Sure

[Master Zen]

@asleepathewheel (and Sir Ralph from the ballads thread):

gifting land is one thing, but understand: GS was gifted land on another continent and the cities which 1) deliberately were in our war path (RP didn't gift GS their southern cities did they? nope)and 2) were positioned as the shortest transit route to move troops from stormia to bob.

Do you think it couldn't have been considered hostile when we saw knights in Toledo on the first few turns it was gifted?

Furthermore, I personally asked GS to at least allow us transit from their new bobian lands and that we would respect their new cities. I was bluntly told NO.

So, I don't know how you can step into GoW's shoes and not see these as hostile acts. Again, I am not debating who was right or who was wrong since it's pointless, but at least give us a bit of credit in understanding why we did what we did

[asleepathewheel]

MZ-

I totally see your POV, hell, I would have been pissed if I were in your situation. If I gave you the impression otherwise, I'm sorry.

[Aeson]

We always understood why you did what you did.

The fact that our Knights beat you to Toledo (without going through Bilbao, or being teleported to our capitol, mind you), should give you some insight as to why it wasn't like you were thinking though. GS could have beat you to Toledo militarily given the path you took, and certainly to all the south. You viewed those cities as yours, trusting that we were incapable of beating you there. We also viewed those cities as 'ours' (the fact we made an alliance with RP instead of going to war with them is the reason why we ended up 'giving them back' to RP*). Furthermore, GS was at war with ND, meaning that if our allies, RP, lost Toledo to another team besides us, our war effort would be hampered.

So our accepting them was seen as hostile by GoW obviously. Would you have viewed your taking them as hostile towards us though, knowing we had just as much claim to them as you did? (we both wanted them, and both needed them in our own separate wars) The answer on my part is that we wouldn't have seen it as a violation of the NAP if GoW had taken Toledo or Bilbao from RP.

That you were ok with Bilbao, but not Toledo, just seems backwards to me in any case. Bilbao was the only South/East RP city we couldn't have beat you to, and Toledo wasn't a port, so wouldn't have facilitated an intercontinental invasion.

The problem with the NAP (other than that we signed a NAP in the first place ), is that it allowed for too much interpretation. Neither team knew then exactly where the other team was at, and so what's hostile to 'ours' was undefined. In a game where every action other than capitulation is 'hostile' to the end goal of each other team (ie. winning), that allowance for interpretation should never be put into a contract IMO.

------------------

The ROP request was made given nothing in return to us. Why would we give GoW an ROP for nothing? Especially considering the fact that when we gave GoW a sea ROP, GoW used it to land troops in our territory to fullfill a contract against us?

-----------------

Some things even now can't be said concerning this of course (probably by both teams).

This is why I find the public announcements, especially those made with derogatory remarks, outside the spirit of gamesmanship. GS couldn't just come out and say "Well we could have beaten you there anyways" at the time, as it would have given too much information about our capabilities to ND (which we were at war with) and GoW (which we were almost certain to be at war with). The result is that people outside the game were making derogatory comments about GS (ie. that we broke the NAP) based on these public announcements in a situation where we couldn't defend ourselves because of events inside the game.

If/When the game reaches a stage where all the information involved can be made public, then is the time to let people make up their minds about who was right, and who was wrong. You can say that it doesn't matter what people think, but when people who I respect start making comments about me or my team, even if based on false or incomplete information, it still hurts. And because of constraints within the game, I can't even give my side of the story at the time?

*I don't know what's happened since I left of course, just commenting on the status of those cities at the time the war started. They certainly would be more useful in the hands of our allies when possible, because of corruption.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by badams52
Actually your situation kind of reminds me of what happens with me and my wife when she wants to take a walk and I don't.

If I say 'no' then she get's upset and staying at home with my upset wife is no fun, so that is not an option.

If I say 'yes' she is happy when we begin to talk, but if I'm being surly and unhappy because I didn't want to go and begrudgingly do go, she can easily pick up on that and we will probably have an argument somwhere along the line making our walk unpleasant.

So not going is never an option (she won't walk alone), and going unwillingly makes the walk unpleasant. :sigh: What can I do?

I know exactly this situation too. Although with the fortunate difference, that my wife finally does go walking alone if I don't want, just like I'm going out alone too if she doesn't want to accompany me.

Ah yes. This is the unfortunate repercussion about emotionally charged posts, or reading a person's posts with emotion attached. If it makes you feel any better Sir Ralph, having had this little discussion has greatly improved both my understanding and my opinion of you.

Opinions tend to depend on emotions, especially on message boards. And to read the correct emotions out of written text isn't that easy done. That's what emoticons are for. Look what difference adding a wink smiley after a post can do. But some people don't like to use smileys, others often just forget about them. In the latter case it is hard to characterize them right.

Though what my opinion of you is might not matter much to you, but improving my opinion of you makes me enjoy reading your posts again.

Well, I generally don't give much about what others think of me, but in your case I will make an exception. Public posts of democracy games always come with emotions attached, people act pissy if they were pissed off and witty in a harmless fun thread. That is normal. Look at Unorthodox, who is in general a creative and witty poster, but in the last days just went berserk. Why? Because he's pissed, that simple. Or take me. I also wrote witty things (well, at least tried to) while in good mood. Do you know Frater Ralphus and the vicious religion of the Great Chicken? The photoshopped (or better PSP'd) picture of the three footed War Chicken, standing in a Breughelish landscape of doom? Or ask the people in my team, how often they laugh about a remark of me in our private forum. But if I got pissed off, I will act pissy, and that's what most people see in the public forum.

But since you are not a member of a particular team and supposed to have an unbiased view, your opinion may be more objective and that's why it's more important to me.

[Master Zen]

That you were ok with Bilbao, but not Toledo, just seems backwards to me in any case. Bilbao was the only South/East RP city we couldn't have beat you to, and Toledo wasn't a port, so wouldn't have facilitated an intercontinental invasion.

Toledo was in our PATH. Bilbao wasn't.

The problem with the NAP (other than that we signed a NAP in the first place ), is that it allowed for too much interpretation. Neither team knew then exactly where the other team was at, and so what's hostile to 'ours' was undefined. In a game where every action other than capitulation is 'hostile' to the end goal of each other team (ie. winning), that allowance for interpretation should never be put into a contract IMO.

True, but we've been called deal brakers by your team, and we've called you dishonorable for doing the very same thing. Where does that get us? Nowhere. Accusations have not been one sided, and GS has played into the hands of the troll just as much as anyone else.

The result is that people outside the game were making derogatory comments about GS (ie. that we broke the NAP) based on these public announcements in a situation where we couldn't defend ourselves because of events inside the game.

This is I think the whole issue in question at the moment.. Why is saying that you people broke the NAP a "derogatory" remark? Please, is everything that is ever said against the wishes or beliefs of GS an insult, a troll or a flame? Because from the looks of it it seems quite a few of you take it like that. GoW has been called cowards, ND's *****es, liars, backstabbers, deal-brakers, by MANY teams including GS. And we're not complaining about how this public forum is not chivalrious and that people act like in a FPS forum. Gow has taken the crap dished out at us, and I find it appalling that so many people from GS left because they were simply incapable of doing the same.

Seriously, go back and read those old threads and you will see that GS did not behave as gentlemanly in this forum as some of you have constantry tried to make us believe.

[Aeson]

GoW moved towards Bilbao before Toledo was gifted to GS. I remember quite clearly that without that move, GoW would have beaten us to Toledo (assuming they made it through RP) regardless of what we did.

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GS made a statement about how they would honor agreements in-game. (obviously the statement was made too often ) This is actually a real life commitment to playing the game a certain way. Now if GS breaks that commitment, it isn't just the 'fake' game commitment that's broken, but the real life word of the members of GS.

That is the difference on that issue. No other team made that statement, so saying they broke an agreement isn't going to carry the same weight against them in real life. In both cases the team broke an in-game commitment, and the in-game reprocussions will be similar, but in the case of GS, it would also has been a breaking of a real life commitment as well.

Obviously, real life character is more important than in-game character. (this has nothing to do with who has real life character and who doesn't, so don't go there)

---------------

Seriously, go back and read those old threads and you will see that GS did not behave as gentlemanly in this forum as some of you have constantry tried to make us believe.

Nowhere have I stated that GS (or myself) behaved better than any other team (or anyone else). You should get in the habit of quoting material you are referencing, and you can then read it to avoid making such completely falacious remarks and insinuations.

If, in fact, you are talking about someone other than me, do no address me when making those statements. Address the proper person.

Where does that get us? Nowhere.

That's my point. There is no value in these types of public accusations, because at best they are unsupported secondhand accounts. These accusations (of in-game events) only have real meaning when shared in-game. The publicizing of these accusations was wrong in all instances IMO (certainly this is a matter of opinion), regardless of who or what team was involved.

[Arnelos]

Geesh... Why on earth does anyone still care about this game?

I gave up caring about this game quite a while ago, now...

As for the posts in this thread, the only person who continues to amaze me with their willful ignorance is Hot_Enamel. Trust me, many of us actually do "get it", but it's rather apparent that you don't.

As for the whole lot of you getting all steamed all over again about things that happened months ago.... trust me, just let it go. As for whether RP Team would be able to live in a world with GoW or ND or anyone else, I don't think our team would have a problem anymore... to be blunt, I can't name a single person in RP who honestly gives a damn anymore. If GoW and/or ND let us live, I'm reasonably sure there'd be little future retaliation on them for it... no-one cares enough about that anymore.

When you step away from the game and just stop caring as passionately about its outcome as though it were one of the more important things in the world, its amazing how that induces clarity as well as calm.

RP live, RP die... I could care less. This is the first time I've even read a thread in the public section of this forum in probably more than 2-3 months (and only because I happen to be bored tonight and noticed that there actually WAS an active thread in this forum).

I'd be willing to keep playing with RP as a minor power or vassal state or client state or whatever to any power in the game or any number of powers in the game for no other reason than for the hell of it at this point. RP lost any chance of winning a long time ago and the team lost any sense of caring about who our enemies are some time ago as well.

If you still want to kill RP off, that's fine, too. Not that we're spending much time on it now as it is, but it'll give a few people some more free time.

No guarantee I'll be reading this thread in the future, btw... so apologies ahead of time if I don't reply to any replies.

Trust me, folks... step away from the game a bit and get some perspective... you're all wasting way too much time on nonsense threads like this.

[Master Zen]

Aeson, no offense but I will not follow through with your word games because frankly everyone knows what we both are talking about and shielding comments by the excuse that they are not targeted at someone or that you never said them is pretty pointless when the attitude and intention is all but obvious.

The fact is that you have constantly stepped into defend what is generally considered to be GS's point of view, and this debate is no exception. I of course understand that having been a valued member of GS it is only natural for you to defend your former team, but please, don't expect us to consider you a completely unbiased and neutral individual in this discussion when the points you've been defending have been precisely those which the "GoW side" has been criticizing.

Secondly, I think you people (and by that I some of the GS crowd) thinks that what happens in this game carries on to other games and to their RL personas. That is not true at all. I see some people, like Arrian and Theseus who are in Cake or Death in the PTWDG, I do not look at them as "GS members" in that game. Sir Ralph is in Monty Python as well as GWT in the ISDG, that does not mean that grudges with GS will be carried on to him in those demo games. Hell, practically the entire Roleplay team is in Sunshine. They are not the same, and they do not get treated the same since they are separate entities.

Please, get over the fact that what happens here, stays here. It does not affect the perception of you people as individuals or as members of other teams, thinking otherwise will only make you paranoid that there's some "anti-GS conspiracy" brewing everywhere, which is simply wrong.

In other words, for me and I would guess for many people, ALL commitments made in this game apply only to this game, there is no such thing as a "RL commitment" made about events in-game. The only real life commitment is that which we took by which we pledged not to cheat because it has nothing to do with the way we play but with the way we abuse the game.

If I were to follow your argument, then whenever another team with a GS member in any other demo game lied or backstabbed or broke a deal, I would stand up and whine and ***** at the fact that that person was also a GS member, and had made a pledge to honor all committments as a real life person and thus it applied to any team he is in. See the flaw in your logic?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
MZ-

I totally see your POV, hell, I would have been pissed if I were in your situation. If I gave you the impression otherwise, I'm sorry.

You don't need to apologize, if I had been a GS member I would also felt quite uneasy at what GoW did. Like I said, it all depends on our teams PoV's which is why it surprises me why some in GS took it so bad when we made public our anger over what happened. If GS had been so sure of what it did was right then surely the silly remarks of those crazy wacko GoWers would have been taken as just mere tantrums!

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Togas
(Vondrack hates us more than half of the GoW players)

This is simply not true. Nor does hate you any other member of Lego.
Whether you believe me or not I don't care. But don't make public accusations based on your assumptions.

To make it clear: 90% behind all of Lego's actions is reason, and maybe 10% emotions (more or less). So the fact that we like some teams more than others (based on their past or current behaviour towards us) only makes our decisions easier or more difficult to take. Simply put: we play to win.

Of course, when we talk about reason/logic as the guidline we follow, there is always a limit. For example, we would never break a treaty. But when we can choose, we choose what is best for us.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Hell, practically the entire Roleplay team is in Sunshine.

Actually, a number of us are on other teams, notably MAST, Tabemono, and Monty Python.