War Weariness.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Now I am being viciously attacked by two members of GS!

Can't your team ever be civil. I just want to play this game in a sterile, Roleplay free, unhostile like environment.

At least they haven't called me a rat.

[Cort Haus]

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Aeson

Ideas should be valued based on themselves, not who types them. There is no need for self-righteous substance to back up an argument if a person is willing to note their own failings and weaknesses. I noted a couple times in posts tonight that I was making derogatory remarks about you, and that the discussion wasn't about whether derogatory remarks were good or bad as well. You are getting confused with our last discussion, which was about that in part.

Ah, so a chain-smoking dad surely will make a huge impression on his kid when he tells him to stop smoking. Aeson, if you ever expect to drive a point across, you should at least be an example of what you are saying. How on earth can someone take you seriously when you call for an end to trolling and derogatory remarks when you yourself say them just as often?

Now you see the problem, I'm sure. You still haven't noted the solution yet though.

The only problem I see is that you insist in having the last word. Just like me.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
That said, now shut up GF or I tell everyone what a DL you are.

Can you imagine me being a DL of anybody? That person must have no free time..................

[Harovan]

Hmmm, true, but you're still not above suspicion...

¿Habla usted español?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Can't your team ever be civil. I just want to play this game in a sterile, Roleplay free, unhostile like environment.

I see the uppercase gave that a whole new meaning

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Hmmm, true, but you're still not above suspicion...

¿Habla usted español?

shhhhhh!!!!! don't spoil it!

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
So even IF Aeson used "the word" (honor that is), it was for certain only describing or quoting something or in the phrase "honor a treaty", but never in the bragging sense.

I agree, my response was based on Aeson's previous post in which he said that by adhereing to the GS honor code, people had made a "real-life committment", I mentioned nothing about bragging or not. But you made it pretty clear on why such "honor code" is a straight-jacket on your own team.

I would judge a team based on what it did more than what it didn't do. If I see a team that broke a treaty in a way that vastly benefited them then all I can say is that it was pretty smart. Heck, the whole GS intervention in Bob was IMO, the smartest thing you could have done, I'm sure if I was in GS I would have totally supported it, even if it involved breaking a treaty or whatever. Ultimately we are all here to win at all costs, and at least for myself I'd rather claim the title of "winner of the PTWDG" than "team which did not break a single treaty".

Finally, diplomacy is not only about how you perceive yourself, but how others perceive you. No matter how good-intentioned a team's actions are, or how strictly it adheres to a code of conduct, if that fails to sway how other people look at your team, then it has failed. If GoW were to be perceived as the most dishonorable and untrustworthy team in the game, we would not get very far. Many people got the impression of GS being rather arrogant at first because of some comments claiming that superior code of conduct. Sure, it can be said that its not GS's fault that they were the only team to publically claim such a thing, and that if every other team made a similar pledge then it couldn't be held against anyone, but like I said, it caused a certain perception of GS that was not entirely positive.

In retrospect I guess GS's intention was to reassure teams that any dealings with them would be honored to the word (a good intention), however, people perceived it differently, as if GS were a "special team", morally superior to all others. I think I can analyse some of the reasons for this, please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

1) The strat forum community for the most part had been an "outsider" to the demo game community. Bringing both groups together caused certain incompatibility in conduct since many of them were unknown to the rest. Everyone knew what you guys were capable, but few knew how you would conduct yourselfs against other humans.

2) Man for man, it is obvious to say GS has players of superior skill than other teams. I've said it once or twice that GS is the "Real Madrid" of demo game teams. Obviously when you know you are up against a titan, there is a degree of resentment and oversensitivity among others, much like you see today in RL towards the USA where it seems no matter what Bush says and does, people take offense at it (me included).

3) GS's "bonding" was made public in a way which made it seem they were not only a morally superior team, but also a team with a superior relationship. This thead, I remember, started when some GSers said that it was unilkely that they would participate in the PTWDG II unless it was another GS-like team. Now, I am not one to judge how well you all get along (and well, if you make calls from Germany to NYC in the middle of the night I guess you all do have a pretty close relationship!) but comments like that totally pissed more than one person off since no-one knows how well other teams get along too. (Heck, I got a call in the middle of last night by H_E where we discussed how to respond to Aeson in this thread ).

4) This goes for everyone, this was the very first multi-player demo game ever among the Civ3 community. We all started from zero, we all had no clue how this game was going to develop, we had no benefit of hindsight in which to guide our actions. The result: we ALL goofed. Be it in bad building (err, btw, could we at GoW borrow Nathan for a few turns?) bad at diplomacy, etc. I can tell you for certain, that these people have not made the same mistakes twice in other demo games, and it is unlikely that these verbal melees will be so common because we all learned our lesson. I am sure that if in any future game there would be a reincarnation of GS they would behave much different than they did in this game, same with RP, same with GoW (hell, maybe we'd even have a productive empire this time around). So in this sense, our greatest sin was being complete, total, and utter n00bs at this thing called a multi-player demo game.

In short (well, not so short) I truly think these are the reasons for the misunderstandings that our attitudes have generated. I'm sure you could write a good hefty list of the things GoW has done wrong as far as other people's perception of us, and you know, you'd be right because no matter how we think of ourselves, it's how YOU do that counts.

-MZ

[Theseus]

:applause:

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Ah, so a chain-smoking dad surely will make a huge impression on his kid when he tells him to stop smoking.

Are you my child, which I am responsible for raising correctly? My point is (using your analogy) not that smoking is bad. My points have been that smoking is going on here...

You have made it clear that what say on this forum doesn't affect you, so there is no harm in 'smoking' at you either. It's just a way to blow off steam, right?

Aeson, if you ever expect to drive a point across, you should at least be an example of what you are saying. How on earth can someone take you seriously when you call for an end to trolling and derogatory remarks when you yourself say them just as often?

If you would pay attention to what I am actually saying, you'd notice that not once in this conversation have I mentioned how people should post outside my obvious dislike of poorly targetted derogatory remarks. It's not the derogatory part that concerns me, nor the trolling, just a specific aspect of how you go about it. HE didn't explain this to you on the phone?

You've misread my intent the whole time. I am not here to correct your behavior, I know that to be impossible. If your behavior changes, it's outside my control and could just as easily, if not moreso, be accomplished through my not being involved. That's something between you and fate. My postings here have been completely for what I was in the mood for. A bit of 'harmless' debate and ill natured remarks directed towards 'some of you' who are impervious to the real nature of my comments.

The only problem I see is that you insist in having the last word. Just like me.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I see the uppercase gave that a whole new meaning

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
... is GS absolutley sure that RP (an early vocal disliker of GS policy & GS members in general) dosnt still want to win this game ?
Perhaps the best chance they have got, is to establish a base on Stormia, and sign a contract with GoW for the complete destruction of GS.
RP gives GoW ability to destroy GS.
GoW gives Stormia resettlement rights to RP.

indeed.

This scenario has been considered on the GS forum.

The Deal: GoW offer Stormia to RP in exchange for access to attack & destroy GS.

The Outcome : GoW land on Stormia, destroy RP in one turn then attack GS.

[Master Zen]

Why don't we just all get together, have a beer, and invade Lego?

[asleepathewheel]

One of the scenarios that we've considered was:

(especially in light of the hard on that Uno has for vox)

RP agrees to backstab us, opens a hole in our defenses for riders to pour in and destroy GS
in exchange for the return to their native homeland, the occupied part anyway.
Vox is restored to Estonia, lego takes over their territory in the north


or something like that.

fun stuff

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Aeson

HE didn't explain this to you on the phone?

Actually, it was just a lot of heavy breathing.