A perspective on the history and future of the Monkey Homeland

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


Nothing about "Alliance".

I just detest tech points. In trading, "alliance", or any other form of measurement.

A lesson learned from a life of collecting various different items from cards to comics to bugs (yes there's a market for bugs). Anything is only worth what someone is willing to buy it for AT THAT TIME. "books", or "tech points" are a guide at best, not the rule. Too often in PBEM's or demogames am I faced with people wanting to tab tech points and make sure they are exactly equal. Most especially annoying when that attitude doesn't swing both directions.

It's far more annoying when the two sides disagree about HOW to tabulate the tech points.

As long as both sides agree that a tech point equals a tech point, you're fine.

[/MZOC3CDG reference]

[ZargonX]

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[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Again, why should I pay top price for HBR when I don't need it and can wait till it's been passed around and devalued is what I'm saying. Even required techs can be relatively worthless. Sure I might eventually need it for age advance, but chances are it'll be tacked on to something later or bought for dirt cheap.

I treat it the same on the selling end too, though. I'll give things away dirt cheap just as often as I receive them. I'm not trying to weasel the best deal, just have a whole different view on what something is "worth". Better to sell a tech to everyone for cheap than to one or two for it's "book value" IMO.

Using your example: You have the option of buying HBR at its current market value of something at or near 120 beakers or indeed actually waiting for the price to fall and then wasting 4 turns and the discounted price of 76 beakers researching it.

I don't know about you, but 76 beakers AND 4 turns might actually be worth more than the full price of 120 beakers.

If you think you can just wait around and get the tech effectively for free from someone who's willing to be charitable to you, on the other hand, go for it.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by ZargonX

Originally posted by Arnelos
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Hey, that stupid chat lasted HOURS.

In the end, Arrian's perspective was proven right: It's a hell of a lot easier to just tabulate things by the editor- provided tech points because they provide a ready-made value to each tech that is at least approximate to its trade value and saves you the considerable trouble of wasting hours of your time haggling.

[Arrian]

Yeah, that particular negotiation was INSANE. IIRC, the disagreement was over this very issue - devaluation (it's just that we still used tech points).

The key is all parties agreeing on what is to be researched by whom and traded for what - BEFORE the research is actually done.

If one team says ahead of time: hey, wait, we don't care about XYZ tech, so we don't want to pay for it, the other teams involved can decide whether or not to bother researching it, and if they do, they can work something else out for how to divvy up that research.

And Arnelos raises a good point - you can wait around for a tech to devalue on the market (and devalue in actual research cost due to the game mechanics), but not in all situations will that work. If you're only 1/2 way through the ancient age, there is no pressing need for HBR. But if you're towards the end of the ancient age, the need becomes more pressing, because you are going to want out of that age. And if the other teams you can trade with approach these things the way many do, you may find it difficult to get that bargain basement price you're looking for. Personally, while I might let it go at a small discount, I dislike your method about as much as you do mine, so I'd be disinclined to help you out by rewarding your strategy.

-Arrian

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian

If I'd had my way, that 3-way tech partnership would still be active (although Mandril would've been a serious problem).

-Arrian

Make you guys a deal then. We won't insist on a Mandril, we agree to peace, we get the Grill back, and we crank up the trading relationship again. Let bygones be bygones.

(Or you can surrender unconditionally now.)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Arrian
Personally, while I might let it go at a small discount, I dislike your method about as much as you do mine, so I'd be disinclined to help you out by rewarding your strategy.

-Arrian

As I said, you are the majority. My mind works in real world terms and has a hard time adjusting to this ridiculously rigid game rules when humans are involved. I find it even more ironic that the AI devalues techs as they do IN GAME, but many humans refuse to. Similar to the beef I have with the local poly folk and the meaning and use of abstain in official polls. I know how it works in the real world, and can't accept the ridiculous interpretations permeating some demogames.

So, what do I do? I let others on my demogame teams deal with tech trades for when I stick my 2 cents in I'm usually criticised. I want no part in it.

In private PBEM's, I deal with it.

[Hot_Enamel]

I am enjoying this MZO lovefest and discussion as much as the next guy ... but can you stop threadjacking my propaganda thread.



As soon as I have some time, I will start flinging some more poo.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Similar to the beef I have with the local poly folk and the meaning and use of abstain in official polls. I know how it works in the real world, and can't accept the ridiculous interpretations permeating some demogames.

The only problem with that argument is that you're wrong.

There are examples where both interpretations of an abstention exist in the real world. In fact, under both the versions of Robert's Rules of Order I've used over the years in different realworld organizations and under the parliamentary procedure used in the United Nations (and other organizations with model that parli pro system), abstentions are respected as NON-votes rather than NO votes with the notable exception of a single body: the United Nations Security Council.

There are organizations and legislatures which treat abstentions as no votes for important quorum reasons, but it is most certainly NOT the universal "realworld" way of doing things as you seem to be arguing.

[/threadjack]

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Arrian


I might have worded that badly... 'cause I think you misunderstood me.

I agree that fair & equitable trades are the way to go for a good long-term relationship. Since that was my original hope for our continent, that's what I was aiming for. If I'd had my way, that 3-way tech partnership would still be active (although Mandril would've been a serious problem).

-Arrian

OK no problem and I concur.

Now back to propoganda.

Monkey brought up negotiating a border several times. And we never really heard back from you.

If Mandrill was going to be a problem, you should have let us know. BUT then we all know now, your war palns were in full swing by that time

And who has benefitted the most from this war?

Who's REX is virtually complete?

Who already got to settle in old monkey lands.?

You may say you didn't want this war, but you sure are capitalizing on it now

And I certainly hope the other continent continues to respond to our request for aid. Not stopping this naked agression right now is the same a Chamberlain telling Hitler he can have the Sudetenland (sp?)

Evil must be stopped before its UNSTOPABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Help the monkeys restore balance to the other continent, before its too late!!!!!!!!!!!

Propoganda off.

[Krill]

Propoganda off

Why is it that I do not believe that?

[Arrian]

Who's REX is virtually complete?

Heh, not ours. We have not yet begun to REX!

-Arrian

[Beta]

Originally posted by conmcb25


...... he can have the Sudetenland (sp?)

Yep - it is about the only word you spelled correctly.

That aside - it is not a bad analogy. You can stop them over here. Or deal with them later when they are much stronger.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Krill

Propoganda off

Why is it that I do not believe that?

Because you are hanging around with me too much in the C3C ISDG

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Beta


Yep - it is about the only word you spelled correctly.

That aside - it is not a bad analogy. You can stop them over here. Or deal with them later when they are much stronger.

Yay, I spelled something correctly!

Thanks, I thought it was a pretty nice peice of propoganda myself.

Propoganda on:

If we weren't getting royally screwed in this war by the cake and dress naked agression, this would almost be fun It certainly has escalated the interest in this game anyway

Propoganda off