A perspective on the history and future of the Monkey Homeland

[Krill]

[Beta]

Originally posted by Krill
I have but one complaint:

C'mon, Monkey, this is some of the best fiction I have ever read!

Ummm... What part would be the fiction???

Us getting stiffed on the trade for Republic???

CoD and Python both attacking us???

Having our GA triggered while still in despotism???

Us being desperate???

That if we are defeated, CoD is sitting in a very strong position???

[Arrian]

We didn't stiff you on Republic. Unless you count "stiffing" you as "not giving it for free" !!

You guys tried to milk us for all we were worth. The "trades" between us were more akin to charity than deals between partners. We were willing to sell you republic at a discount and still you tried to get us to give it to you for free! Even though we had already agreed to the alliance with Python, we would have done the deal and sent you republic, had you made any real attempt at negotiation. I "played" the negotiations straight - nothing would have been different had we not been planning an invasion.

It probably would have come to war anyway. There was no way we were going to accept the location of Mandril.

As to the nature of our relationship in the beginning, I do view this war with regret. I spent considerable time and effort on CoD's diplomacy with Monkey, and really did want to have a cooperative relationship. Unfortunately, circumstances dictated another course.

Consider CoD's position. We are in the middle. We are the English (crappy traits & UU). We have no iron, whereas our northern neighbors did. Our southern neighbors have Numidian mercenaries. Our land is nice, whereas our sourthern neighbors have crap land and our northern neighbors are so close the wood chips from their lumberjacks land in our fields.

One or both of you would have attacked us sooner or later. We figured Python would sword rush us. Our core is so close to theirs it would have been relatively productive right off the bat, and with a little TLC + a FP, they would have an awesome empire. Even if Monkey wanted to help us, they were too far away to do anything before we were crushed.

So Python builds a ton of swords, indicates they want to kill somebody, and asks us to join in against Monkey.

Pop quiz, hot shot: what do you do?

Monkey's relative uselessness in the tech partnership, and the strategic issue of them not being able to help us against Python made the decision rather simple, really. Once our attempts at trying to convince Python not to attack you failed (we offered them the southwest penninsula and REX assistance if they would not go to war), the choice was clear.

-Arrian

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
We didn't stiff you on Republic. Unless you count "stiffing" you as "not giving it for free" !!

To clarify. We had a deal agreed-to. Map making for republic. In addition - you had one of our southern goody huts to pop as part of another deal. You popped the hut early - you say you were sure you would get polytheism - you get map making. You say the deal is now off. We try to cut other deals for republic. They are clearly exorbitant. (I just re-read the CoD FA thread including the specifics of the republic-map making-hut deals.)

Now - we should have put two and two together. Just a couple of turns earlier - we asked:

Can you tell us what those Monty workers and Spearman are doing at your southern borders?

The response:

Building a road with those super-duper industrious workers of theirs. They're helping us with some roadbuilding, and the hooking up of silks. This will benifit them as well.

So - yes, I salute you. The plan was clearly in motion, and depriving us of republic so we could not change governments, and would be stuck with a depsotic GA was great strategy. But it does not deny the fact that you 'stiffed' us on the deal for republic.

Also - as to your overall position regarding why you attacked Monkey - understand completely. But, having done so, did you not expect us to fight for our lives militarily and diplomatically?

Cheers... Beta.

[Arnelos]

The Muhammad Al-Sahaf Team would not be opposed to the infidels all killing one another in a horrible slaughter.

We still love everyone one of you, though.

[Arrian]

I do not recall the deal EVER being just Map Making for Republic. IIRC, Map Making is significantly cheaper than Republic, so I thinkit was our intention to ask for more than just MM. Not necessarily the exact difference in beakers between the two, mind you, perhaps a splitting of the difference. I'd have to check the logs, though.

Exorbitant?! Please. Republic is a VERY expensive tech. CoD spent a ton of beakers researching it. All we wanted was for Python and Monkey to contribute to that - either via tech trade or cash.

Regarding the hut deal: yes, we thought we'd get Polytheism but got MM instead. That was an oversight - both by CoD *and* by Monkey. You guys could have caught that before it happened too, you know. Anyway, as I recall, we did take that unfortunate miscalculation into consideration when negotiating the trade of republic. We attempted to compromise, but it was clear that Monkey had no intention of actually contributing to the research cost of republic that CoD had incurred. Thus, the deal fell through.

I repeat: we would have sold you republic, despite the war plan*. We had no intention of deliberately gouging you for it, either. But there was no way in HELL we were going to give you republic for next to nothing, friend or foe.

Further, please note that CoD did not sell Literature to anyone else (I believe it was LL that didn't have it when we met them), due to the fact that Monkey researched that tech and under the conditions of our technology alliance, it is yours to sell, not ours. We could have sold it, making a small profit and denying said small profit to you, but chose against it. Not because we think YOU will care, of course.

Of course I expect you to fight for your lives, Beta. That's a given. You must also expect me to make sure that CoD's side of the story is told. I make no claim that we are saints, but neither are we demons

FYI - we did hook up silks (it is silks, right, not dyes?) so we could trade them to Python. But yes, the primary purpose of the road was for the invasion. It also has assisted our REX. It's multi-purpose, really.

-Arrian

* - Although it might seem that keeping Republic from you was the smart play, it might actually not be. I honestly considered "caving in" and giving you guys republic right before we invaded. Then we might have caught you in anarchy. Which is worse? 20 turns of despotic GA, or ~15 turns of Republic GA?

[Arrian]

And Beta, so long as we're quoting PMs, I'm going to make sure your selective use of a couple of sentences doesn't go unanswered.

The following is a PM to conmcb25 regarding the republic trade, quoted in full:

Con,

I am of two minds about this issue. On the one hand, I was caught by surprise at getting MM from the hut, and I understand your team's frustration about it. On the other, Republic is an extremely expensive tech, which CoD worked very hard to research. Even if we had not gotten MM from the hut, some sort of compensation was contemplated for a MM - Republic trade.

Map Making is a cost 12 tech, or 288 beakers. Republic is cost 28, or 672 beakers. So when you talk about expending a ton of research on something, we know all too well what you mean. CoD has been fine with structuring trades that weren't necessarily exactly even between us, in the interest of advancing both teams. However, even a deal of Map Making for Republic straight up would have been a major concession on our part (there is a difference of 384 beakers there!). I thought that we had discussed some sort of compensation for the difference (though admittedly we never actually specified what it would be). Now, due to the hut, we already have Map Making. As I said before, we will not trade that on to Python, so you still have that avenue open for trade. Given the SNAFU with the hut, CoD is willing to consider subtracting the value of MM from the value of Republic as if we had gotten MM from you instead of the hut. But that still leaves the difference of 384 beakers between the two techs to talk about.

We are willing to negotiate to find a middle ground here if you guys are too.

-Arrian

* - which you traded us for Mysticism. The outcome of the hut was unexpected, yes, and I think we're willing to take that into account when negotiating on this issue, but if we wanted to dig our heels in, the hut and its outcome have already been paid for. I forgot about MM as a possibility from the hut, but that's something you guys could have caught too.

[Arrian]

Looking back on it, the cash amount I eventually came up with for republic was in fact too high (400gold). Miscalculation on my part. It should have been 216 gold, actually. Basically, I forgot to cut the final number in half... for some reason I was convinced I had it right back then, but looking at it now there should have been one more reduction in the number.

Something tells me that Monkey would have found 216 gold "exorbitant" too, though. CoD was CLEARLY trying to work out a fair solution to the issue, and your only response was "Gimme! We'll, um, pay you back later." [/exaggeration]

-Arrian

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
IBut yes, the primary purpose of the road was for the invasion. It also has assisted our REX. It's multi-purpose, really.

* - Although it might seem that keeping Republic from you was the smart play, it might actually not be. I honestly considered "caving in" and giving you guys republic right before we invaded. Then we might have caught you in anarchy. Which is worse? 20 turns of despotic GA, or ~15 turns of Republic GA?

Yes - we were wondering the same thing. Once we had finished the republic research ourselves - which we have - we contemplated the switch. But by then it was clearly to late. It would have been interesting had you caught us 1 turn into anarchy.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
Looking back on it, the cash amount I eventually came up with for republic was in fact too high (400gold). Miscalculation on my part. It should have been 216 gold, actually. Basically, I forgot to cut the final number in half... for some reason I was convinced I had it right back then, but looking at it now there should have been one more reduction in the number.

Something tells me that Monkey would have found 216 gold "exorbitant" too, though. CoD was CLEARLY trying to work out a fair solution to the issue, and your only response was "Gimme! We'll, um, pay you back later." [/exaggeration]

-Arrian

hehe

Actually - at 200 we may have reached a deal. The 400 was definitely a slap in the face - and as con said in our forum - "it may as well be a million."

We were clearly negotiating from a position of economic weakness. Both teams knew that. I guess we had faith (maybe call it more hope than faith ) in the tech 'alliance' and the notion that the three civs would work towards gaining an advantage on the other continent.

It just seemed to us that when an agreement is reached on a map making for republic deal, and the other team comes up with map making from some other source, that the deal should be honoured. That being said, I can see how it looked from your perspective as well.

And regardless - it would appear that the invasion plans were already in the works by this time, as the road building was chronologically before the trade meltdown. So the issues would have been moot anyway.

[Arrian]

That was one plan. The problem, of course, is that had you done the same things you've done militarily (burn the outposts and pull back), you probably would've been out of anarchy before we even had a shot at one of your Mercs. So that had the potential of backfiring.

Therefore, we decided we would sell you republic, but only if we got a fair chunk of change in return. First, because we weren't about to cut you as much slack on the deal as we had with the other deals, since you were about to become a mortal enemy. Second, because risking giving you a republican GA might have been worth it if we'd gotten a couple of hundred gold for it. At least until the iron depleted (upgrade money)! After that, well, it's probably best for us that it didn't work out.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

It just seemed to us that when an agreement is reached on a map making for republic deal, and the other team comes up with map making from some other source, that the deal should be honoured. That being said, I can see how it looked from your perspective as well.

Like I said, I do not recall the deal ever being MM for republic straight up... that's beyond just a "sweetheart deal" that's practically theft. Further, we offered to eat at least half the cost of MM, and probably would have conceded more if there had been more discussion.

I am vaguely annoyed now about the 400 gold thing. It made sense at the time. I think I see how I went wrong. When we were doing deals with an economic equal (Python), we generally traded techs such that the editor value evened out. I think we got Polytheism (20) plus something else for Republic (28) from them. This got me used to getting equal value in return.

However, when getting a cash contribution, it's not about matching the value of the tech. It's about contributing to the research. There are two ways I could/should have done it: 1) take the cost of republic research and divide by 3 (224 gold). Or 2) take the more complicated deal I was working on (28 minus 6 for half of MM, defer 4 points to later = 18 points = 432 beakers, and divide it in half to equal 216 gold). Either way, the figure should have been around 200 gold.

That really irritates me. Sorry about that.

...

Yes, the war prep had begun long before all this. Despite that, I did my best to continue our tech trading partnership as normal until the war actually started.

-Arrian

[Jon Shafer]

All that's left to do now is lay the Numidian Smackdown (tm)!

So... what's actually happeneing...

[Arrian]

It's been bloody. Pythonian swords, spears and cats versus Monkey Numidians & cats. Monkey's frontline fort town (Fort Siamang) fell to Pythonian assault, and there has been some pretty ferocious combat in that area since.

You already heard about CoD's attempted pillaging expedition in your Strategy forum thread, so I'll not recap that here. Horsemen obviously they don't do that well against Numidians (unless you're Lucky ), so CoD's forces have not engaged Monkey in a large scale battle yet.

CoD's navy has thus far performed admirably, sinking one Monkey galley and fending off barbarians as well.

Missing being THE EYE, Trip?

-Arrian

[Beta]

Originally posted by Trip
So... what's actually happeneing...

Well - we would like to tell you - but to be honest - the bodies of Python swordmen are piled up so high around us we can't see out. We think we see CoD horsemen, and when we kill them too we will let you know.