Emperors at 20 Paces

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Modo44
I admit I have spoken harsh words, but I did so with sincere concern for the Roman Empire and it's people. I am not sorry for what I have said and will not recall it.

Then I demand the censure of Emperor Modo by the Senate.

However, I now understand that the points I made about the Celtic threat are neither obvious nor certain.

Nor correct.

It seems that neither one of us can convince the other. Therefore no further discussion (not demagogy ) seems possible.

Largely because you refuse to address the issues I have raised and you refuse to respond to my comments.....simply because you know you cannot

I say let us lay down the arms (20 men, Senator Gamecube? Why not a whole Legion? )

I have no idea what you are talking about!

and return to the matters at hand, by which I mean the near future of the Empire. Can we do that?

Certainly.....as soon as you retract your charge of cowardice and apoligise unreservedly.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Certainly.....as soon as you retract your charge of cowardice and apoligise unreservedly.

Like I said, I never called anyone a coward. Ergo, there is nothing to retract.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Modo44

I have never used this word when talking about Senator Aquavian Lungarius. Not being brave is still far from being a coward. Very far, to my understanding. It was not my words which bloated a simple statement into a so called "insult", so please, don't judge me so easily.

Once again the Emperor Modo tries to play games with the English language.

The actual statement was:

Originally posted by Modo44
Though courage is not one of your virtues, methiks.

Lack of courage <--> Cowardice

Please explain the difference Emperor, should you still wish to assert your above claim.

[Beta]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Both these senators make some sound and rational arguments!!

However senator Aquavian Lungarius , Rome is neither a democracy nor an empire!!!

Rome is a republic that is run by its senate!!! and you Sir are bound by the Senates decisions via the polls that you should hold prior to your term !!!

Unfortunately my dear Chrisius ... this is not a perfect world, and we are not a perfect government. There is no perfect senate, and no perfect leader. We are a government of human beings, each with our own thoughts and tendencies. A government therefore doomed to imperfection.

But out of this imperfection arises leadership in the form of our emperor, and collective ...often chaotic .. advice from the senate floor. And from this imperfect dynamic, this cauldron of human ideas and experience we know as The Republic, we move forward. And as long as Rome moves forward, I for one, am a content senator.

Senator Optimus Betarius.

[Aqualung71]

Senator ChrisiusMaximus, while I respect the restraint you have shown in your comments, and indeed your attempts at conciliation, I must unfortunately take issue with some of your statements.

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Both these senators make some sound and rational arguments!!

However senator Aquavian Lungarius , Rome is neither a democracy nor an empire!!!

Rome is a republic that is run by its senate!!! and you Sir are bound by the Senates decisions via the polls that you should hold prior to your term !!!

Rome is an empire, run by its emperor under the guidance and advice of the Senate. The time of a full Republic as you describe may one day appear, but I can assure you it is not the case in 300BC.

Countless times in your protestations here you have again and again said blatantly that you ignored and would again ignore the Senate!!!

I do not believe I have ever said I ignored, nor would ignore again, the Senate. I believe I made statements to the effect that I chose not to follow the Senate's advice. The difference is clear, good Senator.

I stated yesterday that Senator Modo should apologise for his accusation of cowardice, and that is still my position. However Sir I also feel you too owe apology to the senate for your slight against our true importance !!!

I have never suggested that the Senate is not important, and in fact I have continuously included the Senate in my addresses. I merely stated, plainly and honestly, that I acted as I saw fit as your Emperor when clear executive decisions were requied.

You sir were entrusted to carry out the senates wishes, no Senator has the right to deviate grossly from that path!!! I sir spoke of inexperience yesterday to attempt to salvage your reputation from potential ruin. You are not here to implement your own will!! you are here to carry forth the wishes of the Senate!!!

I was elected Emperor for the good of Rome. As our esteemed PPP Senator Paddy has pointed out at length, the Emperor is not bound by any "decision" of the Senate, nor indeed is he even bound by the advice of the Senate. He will however, be judged by the Senate on his actions.

I have repeatedly stated that I am prepared to be judged by the Senate upon my actions, my performance as Emperor, and the implications of such stewardship for the Roman Empire. With the greatest of respect good sir, I have yet to read any argument by either a former Emperor or a Senator that attempts to address this issue.

If you should continue to belittle the Senate with your misguided assertions that you know best then I will withdraw my support from your corner!!!

I have no wish to, nor have I ever belittled the Senate. I am merely defending myself against the charge of cowardice levelled upon me by the Emperor Modo.

Any Senator who finds himself in a similar situation in future should have the wisdom to seek support for his ideas through debate and reasoned argument. Not risk the division of the whole Senate in the way Senator Aquavian Lungarius has.

Again, I have seen no evidence that the Senate is seriously divided over the issues that Emperor Modo raised....namely, the peace treaty with the Celts.

I stand by my assertion of your inexperience Senator

Which I therefore reject, Senator.

As for Senator Modo he stands on shakier ground to my mind unless he retracts his accusation of cowardice!!! we can not allow such blatant abuse of Senatorial powers to be used to pursue petty minded private squabbles and personal mudslinging.

Agreed.

I senator Chrisius Maximus hereby attest that Senator Aquavian Lungarius is of the bravest men of Rome and as such deserves the due and proper respect.

I make no special claim of bravery....yet I thank you for this compliment.

Unless Senator Modo publicly apologises for his slight on Aquavian Lungarius good character then I propose he be severly punished for his abuse of his status.

Only the Senate can decide on such a matter of collective censure, and so I make no comment.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Beta

Unfortunately my dear Chrisius ... this is not a perfect world, and we are not a perfect government. There is no perfect senate, and no perfect leader. We are a government of human beings, each with our own thoughts and tendencies. A government therefore doomed to imperfection.

But out of this imperfection arises leadership in the form of our emperor, and collective ...often chaotic .. advice from the senate floor. And from this imperfect dynamic, this cauldron of human ideas and experience we know as The Republic, we move forward. And as long as Rome moves forward, I for one, am a content senator.

Senator Optimus Betarius.

Senator Optimus Betarius, while I have been stating my case in as eloquent a manner as I can muster, you have managed to summarise the issues in a handful of words.

Your wisdom extends far beyond the confines of the walls of the senate building, and I bow before your insight.

It only remains for me to say that I look forward to the years of the reign of the Emperor Optimus Betarius, and hope to serve honourably as a Senator under your leadership.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Once again the Emperor Modo tries to play games with the English language.

I didn not, for all I know. (You made me use a dictionary, dang you. )

Originally posted by Aqualung71
The actual statement was:

Lack of courage <--> Cowardice

Please explain the difference Emperor, should you still wish to assert your above claim.

Very well, I will.

To me, a courageous man goes into battle without fear and is steadfast in his actions. He does not retreat from an enemy and often even seeks engagement. He will only avoid a fight that would be impossible to win. If a man is not courageous, he might be reluctant to fight when the odds are against him, but he will fight if he has to. He will rather not take risks, though, even if they could bring him benefits. However, lack of boldness does not constitute a coward. A coward would be someone who is afraid to fight at all and would rather try to flee the battlefield, instead of taking on an enemy.

You did fight where the fight came to you, Emperor - on Sicily and near Massilia. And you didn't retreat, you even took a city that was already under siege by Roman troops. So no, Emperor, I have no reason to call you a coward. But you didn't want to take a risk by attacking the Celts. A risk which, in my opinion, was acceptable. So no, Emperor, I can't call you courageous either.


As I mentioned, we don't share the opinion about the Celts and how to handle them. And no arguments can change that, because we cannot be sure how the barbarians (and other nations) will progress. So please, let's end this discussion.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Senator Optimus Betarius, I too as well as Senator Aquavian Lungarius applaud your insight here but two things remain in my mind for sure.

The first thing is no matter which way the ducking and diving goes the word Courage is indelebly linked by defintion to the word coward!! in short both words mean the same thing And Senator Modo should be held accountable if he refuses to accept this truth.

The second is that an issue of considerable import such as the signing of a peace treaty with an enemy that the Senate has declared war upon is a matter for the whole Senate to debate!!! not for an individual to decide how best to proceed!!!

I would also like to add that Rome is not an Empire lorded over by an individual, it is as Ive already pointed out a REPUBLIC run by a Senate!!! As far as the timeline goes I am historically correct Senator Aquavian Lungarius, and infact the Empire as such did not occur for centuries from our current date!!!

You achieved many great things in your term which I have happily acknowleged already, but you should have spoken to the Senate regarding Peace with the Celts. Had you done so and presented the facts and your case Im of little doubt you would have received support for your plans, that is not the issue. The issue is your arrogance when challenged regarding this matter !!!

You show inexperience by your actions my honourable friend in that you seem not to recognise the need to keep your Senate informed of momentous decisions and regard the processes of Senatorial decision makeing to be a burden to your own will !!!

Woe to any Senator who thinks he is above the law !!!

[Daddy-O]

Well, well, well, I leave the Senate floor for a few hours and look what happens.

It is obvious that Emperors Aquavian Lungarius and Modo will not agree on the issues of the Celts and the definition of cowardice. So let us move on to the more important issue. The roles of the Senate and the Emperor.

An Emperor must be guided by the will of the people via the Senate or Rome will be no greater than our enemies. War and Peace are serious matters that must be decided on by the Senate when there is time for discussion. What were the circumstances of this peace treaty with the Heathen Celts? Did they come to the esteemed Emperor Aquavian Lungarius, or did he ignore the will of the Senate and offer peace out of fear that the Senate's grand plan would fail? This is important to understand.

An Emperor must be able to react to circumstances as the game unfolds. If the Celts came to Emperor Aquavian Lungarius, he needed to react right then. Telling the Celts that he needed to consult with the Apolyton Senate does not work in the mechanics of the game. The Emperor also needs to be able to react to sneak attacks from lesser nations that look to make a name for themselves by attacking our glorious Rome.

The report of turns seems to support the case that the Celts came begging for peace in 305BC -
"Brennus gave us 2 small and distant towns for our trouble – Noviodunum and Vesontio – plus 47g."
One does not surrender territory and gold easily. Excellent work Emperor Aquavian Lungarius.

I formally request to know the circumstances, that led to the peace treaty with the Celts, that now binds this Senate. We already know the reasoning and the results. We also know how the former Emperor views the voice of the Senate. So, most glorious Emperor Aquavian Lungarius, which is it? Did the heathen Celts beg for peace with mighty Rome; or did you seek peace against the will of the Roman Senate?

I hope this ends this matter and helps us with the future governance of Rome.

Long Live Rome!

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Im pretty sure the former Emporer initiated the peace talks himslf, at least thats how it reads in his term report.

Peace with the Celts may be a good thing for us at this time, and consultation with the Senate may have received backing for such an initiative.

It is rightly stated by Senator Skrobism that the mechanics of this world of ours dont allow for consultations if the enemy has made the contact, a decision has to be taken!!

I do however believe from what has been put forward by Aquavian Lungarius that it was initiated by himself, and therefore I feel there is a case to be answered.

At this point though we can not undo what has been done, and I would propose that we the senate take this opportunity to tighten the Senatorial laws so as to prevent this sort of thing happening again.

[Daddy-O]

...and I will take this to the Senate Floor.

[Aqualung71]

Firstly, indeed Senator ChrisiusMaximus is correct - Emperor Modo has branded me a coward regardless of how many dictionaries he wishes to use. I demand either full redress or a formal censure of the Senate involving the stripping of Emperor Modo's family vineyards from his possession . The honour of a Roman Emperor is not something to be trifled with!

On the issue of the peace deal with the Celts, I can clear up the doubt and perhaps add another pertinent fact that I have thus far omitted from the debate.

I sent my emissary directly to the barbarian Brennus to ask for peace, hoping to gain some nearby towns and cash. The nearby towns were not available, but as you know I did manage to procure 2 distant towns - difficult as they may be to defend in the short term against a surprise attack.

I will also add at this time, that although I was already considering such a peace deal, the fact that Brennus has sent an Archer alongside the undefended Roman town of Segusio cemented my decision. This occurred as a road had not yet been completed to the town and so a defender could not be dispatched in time when the Archer appeared out of the mountains to the north. Not wishing to lose the town, nor indeed wishing our loyal citizens to suffer needlessly at the hands of barbarians, I immediately sued for peace.

The Emperor Modo would probably again call such an act in the face of the enemy cowardice.....however leaving an undefended town to its fate is stupidity rather than uncourageous. I acted with the pragmatism that the Senate would expect of a balanced leader....and not with the reckless courage and abandon that some others may well advocate.

I hope in the light of this statement, that the Senate and in particular Senator ChrisiusMaximus can appreciate that under the circumstances I felt that consultation with the Senate was not required and that the obvious course of action was to immediately sue for peace and save our fight for another day. I did not intentionally set out to arrogantly disregard the Senate's wishes, and I hold that esteemed body in the highest of regard. If my bearing has appeared arrogant at times, it is because I have been confident of my reign and steadfast in my convictions, and I graciously offer an apology to any Senate member so offended (with the exception of the libelous Emperor Modo). As chosen leader, an Emperor must often walk a fine line between strength and acquiescence. I choose strength, and for that I offer no apology.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Ah well you ought not to have omitted that detail earlier, but still it does indeed throw a different light on this issue.

I fully support your actions taken in the light of this previously unknown fact

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
I will also add at this time, that although I was already considering such a peace deal, the fact that Brennus has sent an Archer alongside the undefended Roman town of Segusio cemented my decision. This occurred as a road had not yet been completed to the town and so a defender could not be dispatched in time when the Archer appeared out of the mountains to the north. Not wishing to lose the town, nor indeed wishing our loyal citizens to suffer needlessly at the hands of barbarians, I immediately sued for peace.

Ahh, now it is clear. You have forced yourself to make peace by a grave error in military planning. That's the only name I know for leaving a border without defenses, while at war! And you dare challenge me after that?!

Originally posted by Aqualung71
The Emperor Modo would probably again call such an act in the face of the enemy cowardice.....however leaving an undefended town to its fate is stupidity rather than uncourageous.

Yes. It is definately stupidity that a city facing the enemy we're at war with is left without proper defenses. Where did you learn planning military operations, Emperor?

[Aqualung71]

A pathetic response from a desperate man clutching at straws as he sees the tide turning against him.

The town in question had just completed a Barracks and was beginning to build defenders. A road was being built and would shortly be completed. Once must take calculated risks when necessary....the timing of this incident unfortunately went against us. That is all. Do not make more of it than it is, good sir!

And if my memory serves me correctly, you too left that town undefended while you sent pitifully few Legionaries northwards into Celtic territory.

And as I have already alluded to, the Legionaries had already been withdrawn from Celtic territory. The attack had been cancelled, with or without a peace treaty.