Emperors at 20 Paces

[Beta]

Originally posted by Modo44
Paddy, please don't get upset about this. Both me and Aqualung are roleplaying a bit here. No hard feelings, really.

Well said Modo. Let's all keep this in mind. We have had enough demogame discussions descend into personal attacks. Lets keep this on the up and up.

Ok - back to the debate. To be honest - as a senator I find myself torn. The age old debate ....

Benevolent dictator versus vox populi (the voice of the people).

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Modo44
Paddy, please don't get upset about this. Both me and Aqualung are roleplaying a bit here. No hard feelings, really.

Oh so this is what we are doing, are we Emperor? So you confess to deliberately wasting the Senate's time with idle gossip and shenanigans such as this, when we are at war with Carthage? Such chatter is below an Emperor good sir, and I publicly castigate you for lowering the office of Emperor to such a standard!

Finesse and diplomacy are important virtues, I agree.

Thank you

But halting an ongoing invasion, which could be reinforced without any problems, seems a little too cautious to me. Dangerously cautious.

Rather a contradiction, wouldn't you agree? If the invasion can be "reinforced without any problems", how can halting it be dangerous? In fact, I should go so far as to suggest that "dangerously cautious" is almost a contradiction in terms, but I do not wish to embarrass you further.

Let's stick to the facts here. You deliberately acted against the Senate's decision.

Yes, undoubtedly. Although I would like to correct the obvious misapprehension under which you are labouring: I deliberately acted against the Senate's advice. The Senate does not make leadership decisions, but offers advice in assisting the Emperor govern the empire.

Also, you made it possible for the Celts to keep growing, which endangers our future expansion. While I understand your logic, I must dismiss it as too passive against the barbarians.

You dismiss my logic? And you dismiss logic as being too passive? Perhaps we do not speak the same language Emperor, because in my language, such expressions are contradictory and ludicrous.

The Celts have a total of 6 or 7 cities, rather sparsely improved. They are not a threat, and they will be better dealt with once Rome expands further north (using the Citizens I have already sent in that direction).

Persisting with an attack on the Celts, whose cities are too far north to offer any economic benefit to Rome under our current form of Government, will constitute grossly inefficient management of our resources in these vital early days of Empire. Furthermore, the distance to the Celtic lands means that reinforcements will be slow, and our supply lines will constantly be under threat. The Legionaries in Massillia cannot be used to push north, as Carthage now threatens with Swordsmen from the West.

In short, Emperor Modo, you would have Rome stretch her military resources dangerously thin by continuing with this suicidal military strategy of a 2-front war!

Oh, you mean the long term benefit of making the Senate unimportant in directing the Empire?

This contemptuous and inflammatory statement belittles the important role our great Senate plays in the wheel of government, and accordingly I shall ignore it!

Or do you mean the long term benefit of having to face hordes of Gallic Swordsmen?

Gallic Swordsmen will be few and far between, and ineffectual against our Heavy Cavalry.

I need not defend my decisions. They were made by the Senate...

Then you good sir, while undoubtedly an efficient administrator, are not a leader!

and they were executed both with swiftness and great effect. Senators have noted the good shape in which I left the Empire for future generations.

And you have my compliments on your efficient handling of the administration of Rome. You are indeed, an excellent bureaucrat .

Great job indeed. It should be noted, however, that the empire was already growing in almost every aspect, when you picked it up - after my ruling period.

Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, I think it speaks for itself that I was able to double the shield production of Rome in the 5 turns under my rule. Yes, the empire was growing under your rule. It grew substantially faster under mine. End of story.

I bow to your abilities to continue good strategies that have already been started.

Thank you. I built upon those good strategies, and I amended those "not so good" strategies and implemented more beneficial ones. Again, that demonstrates leadership.

Perhaps he is, perhaps he isn't. The idea, however, was to never have to find out. You broke it.

More procrastination, more fence-sitting. I ask my esteemed colleagues in the Senate, what sort of statement is this from a former leader of our Empire? Either the Celtic Swordsman is stronger than our Legionaries, or he is not. He is not. Period. Furthermore, he is even weaker against our Heavy Cavalry. Period. Never to have to find out? We already know! Ah, you expose your weakness Emperor!

Yes, I was truly hard on the barbarians. I sought to destroy them and had success. I did so in accordance with the Senate's decisions. What a "reckless abandon" of possibilities, what a "glory-seeking" act.

Yes, you attacked and captured the closest Celtic town, a laudable and courageous action indeed . But the success went to your head and you ignored the effect geography has on military strength in the pursuit of further glories.

My opinion, concerning the peace treaty with the Celts, is as follows. The Emperor should have at least addressed the Senate to ask if it would be for the good of the Empire. A simple Yea/Nay vote would make the matter clear enough.

Perhaps you are right. Yet in the field I felt that an instant executive decision needed to be made, and I made it. A Senate vote would not have changed my decision.


My case is clear and compelling.

I now call upon the next great leader of Rome to step forward, and let him also have the courage of his convictions and not be a mere pawn in the hands of the Senate. We each have our role to play, good Senators. Rome needs, Rome demands leaders. Let them lead!. Their reputation shall be made or broken upon their performance, as has mine!

[Aqualung71]

To Senators McMeadows, Platypus Rex and ChrisiusMaximus, I understand your concerns. However, there are some wider issues at stake here.

As our esteemed PPP Senator Paddy has reminded you all, the role of the Senate is to advise the Emperor. The Emperor has been chosen to lead Rome, and presumably has been so chosen for his qualities of leadership. Leadership involves crisp and decisive actions for the good of empire, not the extraction of a consensus from a body of men with possibly conflicting self-interest and the subsequent implementation of said consensus. Such a government requires no leader.

Leadership also requires one to make difficult choices based not only on the resources currently at hand, but bearing in mind the longer term good of the empire and the tools one wishes to leave in the hands of future emperors. Would you have your emperors shackled by the constraints put upon them by Senators who, though certainly esteemed in their own right, have yet to taste the challenges of leadership and who are not aware of the dynamics that the current emperor is facing in the field on a day to day basis?

What you are suggesting Senators, is that Rome should become bogged down in the machinations of bureaucracy. I say to you now, that there is no surer way to bring about the downfall of this great and wondrous empire than to impose bureaucratic restrictions on your chosen leader, amounting to a predilection for form over substance!

To all great Senators of Rome, I ask you now. Given our current military resources and the required concentration for the push on Carthage itself.....who among you would advise Rome now to declare war on the Celts? Only those among you who are daring and foolhardy enough to propose an instant re-delcaration of war upon the Celts, has the moral right to damn my decision, and indeed to question the authority under which I made the decision.

To Senator Chrisius Maximus specifically, while I raise my eyebrows at your suggestion of my "inexperience", I appreciate your support for a full apology from the Emperor Modo.

To the Emperor Modo

I shall respond to your increasingly desperate and forlorn ramblings under separare cover.


Long live the Glory of Rome!

[snoopy369]

Although I'm new to Demo games, and don't know precisely the issue in terms of what changes an emperor can get away with and what he/she cannot ...

I wish to tender only the acts of one Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, the great Roman leader during the Second Punic Wars. He, and he alone, defeated the Carthaginians, when no other Roman general could defeat any Barca, Hannibal or otherwise. He defeated each Barca, one at a time, and ultimately beat Hannibal in Carthage.

Why do I bring him up?

He beat Hannibal, even when Hannibal still had the upper hand, by going against the wishes of the Senate, and attacking Carthage directly, leaving Italy even while Hannibal was nearing the gates of Rome.

His action was, in hindsight, the correct one -- forcing Hannibal to leave Italy, and defend his own city; in fact it was the only way to defeat Hannibal. His brilliant political moves - considered failures by the Roman Senate until they saw the results - led to the defeat of Hannibal, when he treated with the Libyan King, failing to win his help (and thus angering the Senate) but succeeding in forcing Carthage to betray their Ethiopian allies to win Libya over.

However, the Roman Senate never forgave him for ignoring their wishes, and although elected to a second Consulate and three Princeps (Principal of the Senate) out of respect for his victory, he died scorned by the senate and was not buried on Roman soil.

Thus did Rome treat its greatest hero.

[Paddy]

/me is seen mumbling and grumbling over in his chair

then "Here Here, and rightly so" booms across the room

[Snowflake]

An Emperor is an emperor. I propose that if there are unsatisfactions within the Senete regarding an Emperor's action, a motion should be filed, a debate should be formed and a decision should be made as to whether the emperor's offense was grave enough to be punished in such ways as forbiddening of any further direct handling of the Roman empire.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

My input here is that I commend the improvements in the finances of Rome, but the question of peace should have been put to the senate without doubt!!!

We will all doubtless have differing views on different issues, for example I feel workers are less important than legionaries and the more legionaries we build the more slaves we will capture from our enemies!!!

Each Emporer must have the autonomy to carry out the routine mundane stuff of every turn but a decision as important as a peace treaty should and must be put before the senate for proper debate !!!

On that Senator Aquavian Lungarius is out of order!!! and it is now only right that this issue be addressed by the whole senate.

I dont however feel there is need for harsh punishment as this can be put down to inexperience and lets face it on the whole the second Emporers reign has done well for Rome!!!

Senator Modo I understand your view point, I agree with your view point, but I do feel it was unfair to question the senators courage. Perhaps we need to be reminded that Aquavian Lungarius did complete the cleansing of Sicily, which in itself is a splendid military achievement and Rome owes it thanks to the senator. I believe that Senator Modo should publicly apologise to Senator Aquavian Lungarius at a full meeting of the whole Senate!!!

I would suggest that we all learn from this debacle that no man is an island and that the People and the Senate of Rome demand obedience from their elected Emporers.

[Modo44]

Paddy, please don't get upset about this. Both me and Aqualung are roleplaying a bit here. No hard feelings, really.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
The successful running of an empire requires finesse and diplomacy, not merely the ability to act on impulse and bravado and wield a sword against one's weaker neighbours.

Finesse and diplomacy are important virtues, I agree. But halting an ongoing invasion, which could be reinforced without any problems, seems a little too cautious to me. Dangerously cautious.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
I am disappointed and angered at your charge of cowardice. My rationale for making peace with the Celts was explained in detail, yet you have chosen to ignore my logic and suggest that foolhardy military bravery is more desirable. When hot-headed desires for military glory are acted upon impulsively, such as you have in your reign, the entire future of empire is put in jeopardy.

Let's stick to the facts here. You deliberately acted against the Senate's decision. Also, you made it possible for the Celts to keep growing, which endangers our future expansion. While I understand your logic, I must dismiss it as too passive against the barbarians.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
I once respected your reign as Emperor, yet I now see clearly that you only sought acclamation and exaltation from the Senate. The long-term benefit of Rome shall be served very well by the actions undertaken during the reign of the Emperor Aquavian Lungarius.

Oh, you mean the long term benefit of making the Senate unimportant in directing the Empire? Or do you mean the long term benefit of having to face hordes of Gallic Swordsmen?

Originally posted by Aqualung71
I daresay time shall not judge your leadership so well, as you needlessly and selfishly promoted your own self-interest above the good of the people, and the hearts of the mothers of Rome who sent their lads out to battle ill-prepared and under-strength.

I need not defend my decisions. They were made by the Senate and they were executed both with swiftness and great effect. Senators have noted the good shape in which I left the Empire for future generations.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
I am quite prepared to rest on my record. I will be judged by the people of Rome.....and not by a meglomaniac Emperor, jealous of his power being usurped! My record in the economic measures available to us is as follows, over the 25 years of my reign:

GNP: +21%
Manufactured Goods: +48%
Productivity: +24%

Great job indeed. It should be noted, however, that the empire was already growing in almost every aspect, when you picked it up - after my ruling period. I bow to your abilities to continue good strategies that have already been started.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
With statistics such as these in a short 25 years, Rome has advanced substantially. If these improvements can be maintained, there is no doubt Rome shall continue to be all powerful. Under such economic prosperity with such substantial production power, Emperor Modo's winge about Celtic Swordsmen is exposed as mere slander. The Celts will never have the productive power to send more than a handful of Gallic Swordsmen against Rome. And remember, the Gallic Swordsman at 3 attack is vastly inferior to even our Legionary II.

Perhaps he is, perhaps he isn't. The idea, however, was to never have to find out. You broke it.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
At the time of my reign, we were ill-prepared to conduct military operations against the Celts, and our military strength was needed south against Carthage. Emperor Modo's reckless abandon and glory-seeking has been checked for the good of Rome.

Yes, I was truly hard on the barbarians. I sought to destroy them and had success. I did so in accordance with the Senate's decisions. What a "reckless abandon" of possibilities, what a "glory-seeking" act.


My opinion, concerning the peace treaty with the Celts, is as follows. The Emperor should have at least addressed the Senate to ask if it would be for the good of the Empire. A simple Yea/Nay vote would make the matter clear enough.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by McMeadows
I have high esteem of our emperor and he has earned his merits, still the bravest action during his reign was to ignore the senate's wishes. Allthough well argumented and maybe even a wise decission, this upsets me as a senator. Is our voice not heard? Are we just mere puppets to the emperor? Senator Modo often seems to be a bit too compulsive in his actions and words, but nonetheless we should respect the freedom of speech.

ahh yes indeed, more questions on Emperor Aquavian Lungarius actions, which is a very important discussion

Yet the Emperor's initial post is a request to have a grave insult retracted

Originally posted by Aqualung71

Originally posted by Modo44

Though courage is not one of your virtues, methiks.

I take that charge as a grave insult, Emperor. Please withdraw it

I do believe this matter needs to be addressed

Should this be allowed

It is noted that we all come from different people groups from a number of nations throughout the known world

It is also noted that we are utilizing a common language in our dealings with each other, and that this may not be our mother tongue

Also that that in these lands, certain words can have different meanings / attitudes / contexts

It is not the intent on forming this Senate to have people personally insulted

[Paddy]

Senator Platypus Rex you do raise the issue of whether Emperor Aquavian Lungarius actually followed the will of the Senate

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
Too interesting of a dilema

Yes, what should happen to an Emperor who does not do the will of the senate, even if all intentions and outcomes still benefit Rome.

The plans were disscussed, votes were made. Direction of the Empire was set in motion.

I cannot give my support to the actions taken by Emperor Aqualung. This kind of action must to allowed to continue by any other Emperor.

I ask that if there needs to be a change in direction that is needed. Let us debate and vote. I would then be proud to give my support.

Thank you Senators

At this time the The Grand Book of Rome - Our Law states:

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot

This is all open to negotiation and change in the mighty Senate of Rome.

-----------------------------------


1. The land is led by an Emperor and the Senate of Rome

2. Each Senator has a vote

3.a. The Emperor is successively rolled through a list of players that are on The Great Roll of Emperors
3.b. Please feel free to add your name to the list.
3.c. You may nominate someone else, but they will not be added to the list until they agree.
3.d. A Senator nominated by another player will not be accepted until they personally accept.
3.e. The nominated player needs to be a member of the Civ 3 Demo Game Civ Group.
3.f. Names may be added to the list at any time.
3.g. If a name is added to the list after it has been rolled over, they will need to await until their Family name is called according to the list.

4.a. The Consuls are drawn from the The Great Roll of Emperors. Here we take the Emperor who has just Retired, and the next Two Heirs to the Throne.

It is the Consul’s job to present and moderate ideas for the Emperor to utilize during his term. This means through running threads, polls and getting discussions underway and followed through.

5. All Senators to be registered in the The Roll of Senators


-----------------------------------


The order of play:

The Initial Save is posted

The Senate gathers and discusses the situation in threads and polls

The Emperor starts a multi-vote poll to give the Senate a last opportunity for guidance before starting his turns

The Emperor then goes on and plays a series of 5 turns

The Emperor then comes back and:
- start a thread for their reign and in here write up a report (this can be done with assistance of other Senators
- the save is posted in the Sacred Save thread for everyone to look over
- pictures, maps etc are posted in their Reign thread

These turn sessions can be interrupted by emergencies that need to be sort by the Consuls and / or the Senate. Thus some sessions would only be the turns until the emergency is declared. Then the Emperor continues until his 5 turn are completed.



The final save is posted

This ends the Emperor’s reign

We then move the reign to the next Senate Family that is listed on The Great Roll.

If that Great Family is not able to take up the Empire, then the Consul’s will invite the next Family on the list to step forward.

Once all names on the list have been exhausted, we start at the top of the list.

-----------------------------------

All Senators of Rome have an Equal vote

Yet it is the Emperors right to lead

He has Consuls to assist, and the right to stop his session to consult with either the Consuls and / or the Senate

Do you see a problem here?

[McMeadows]

I have high esteem of our emperor and he has earned his merits, still the bravest action during his reign was to ignore the senate's wishes. Allthough well argumented and maybe even a wise decission, this upsets me as a senator. Is our voice not heard? Are we just mere puppets to the emperor? Senator Modo often seems to be a bit too compulsive in his actions and words, but nonetheless we should respect the freedom of speech.

[Addled Platypus]

Too interesting of a dilema

Yes, what should happen to an Emperor who does not do the will of the senate, even if all intentions and outcomes still benefit Rome.

The plans were disscussed, votes were made. Direction of the Empire was set in motion.

I cannot give my support to the actions taken by Emperor Aqualung. This kind of action must to allowed to continue by any other Emperor.

I ask that if there needs to be a change in direction that is needed. Let us debate and vote. I would then be proud to give my support.

Thank you Senators

[Beta]

Senator Optimus Betarius also nods in agreement.

(Then again - with Betarius it is never clear if he isn't just nodding off...)

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Snowflake
Very convincing.

* Snowflake nods her head.

Thank you Senator. Your support is noted and appreciated

[Snowflake]

Very convincing.

/me nods her head.