Emperors at 20 Paces

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Beta

Unfortunately my dear Chrisius ... this is not a perfect world, and we are not a perfect government. There is no perfect senate, and no perfect leader. We are a government of human beings, each with our own thoughts and tendencies. A government therefore doomed to imperfection.

But out of this imperfection arises leadership in the form of our emperor, and collective ...often chaotic .. advice from the senate floor. And from this imperfect dynamic, this cauldron of human ideas and experience we know as The Republic, we move forward. And as long as Rome moves forward, I for one, am a content senator.

Senator Optimus Betarius.

Senator Optimus Betarius, while I have been stating my case in as eloquent a manner as I can muster, you have managed to summarise the issues in a handful of words.

Your wisdom extends far beyond the confines of the walls of the senate building, and I bow before your insight.

It only remains for me to say that I look forward to the years of the reign of the Emperor Optimus Betarius, and hope to serve honourably as a Senator under your leadership.

[Aqualung71]

Senator ChrisiusMaximus, while I respect the restraint you have shown in your comments, and indeed your attempts at conciliation, I must unfortunately take issue with some of your statements.

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Both these senators make some sound and rational arguments!!

However senator Aquavian Lungarius , Rome is neither a democracy nor an empire!!!

Rome is a republic that is run by its senate!!! and you Sir are bound by the Senates decisions via the polls that you should hold prior to your term !!!

Rome is an empire, run by its emperor under the guidance and advice of the Senate. The time of a full Republic as you describe may one day appear, but I can assure you it is not the case in 300BC.

Countless times in your protestations here you have again and again said blatantly that you ignored and would again ignore the Senate!!!

I do not believe I have ever said I ignored, nor would ignore again, the Senate. I believe I made statements to the effect that I chose not to follow the Senate's advice. The difference is clear, good Senator.

I stated yesterday that Senator Modo should apologise for his accusation of cowardice, and that is still my position. However Sir I also feel you too owe apology to the senate for your slight against our true importance !!!

I have never suggested that the Senate is not important, and in fact I have continuously included the Senate in my addresses. I merely stated, plainly and honestly, that I acted as I saw fit as your Emperor when clear executive decisions were requied.

You sir were entrusted to carry out the senates wishes, no Senator has the right to deviate grossly from that path!!! I sir spoke of inexperience yesterday to attempt to salvage your reputation from potential ruin. You are not here to implement your own will!! you are here to carry forth the wishes of the Senate!!!

I was elected Emperor for the good of Rome. As our esteemed PPP Senator Paddy has pointed out at length, the Emperor is not bound by any "decision" of the Senate, nor indeed is he even bound by the advice of the Senate. He will however, be judged by the Senate on his actions.

I have repeatedly stated that I am prepared to be judged by the Senate upon my actions, my performance as Emperor, and the implications of such stewardship for the Roman Empire. With the greatest of respect good sir, I have yet to read any argument by either a former Emperor or a Senator that attempts to address this issue.

If you should continue to belittle the Senate with your misguided assertions that you know best then I will withdraw my support from your corner!!!

I have no wish to, nor have I ever belittled the Senate. I am merely defending myself against the charge of cowardice levelled upon me by the Emperor Modo.

Any Senator who finds himself in a similar situation in future should have the wisdom to seek support for his ideas through debate and reasoned argument. Not risk the division of the whole Senate in the way Senator Aquavian Lungarius has.

Again, I have seen no evidence that the Senate is seriously divided over the issues that Emperor Modo raised....namely, the peace treaty with the Celts.

I stand by my assertion of your inexperience Senator

Which I therefore reject, Senator.

As for Senator Modo he stands on shakier ground to my mind unless he retracts his accusation of cowardice!!! we can not allow such blatant abuse of Senatorial powers to be used to pursue petty minded private squabbles and personal mudslinging.

Agreed.

I senator Chrisius Maximus hereby attest that Senator Aquavian Lungarius is of the bravest men of Rome and as such deserves the due and proper respect.

I make no special claim of bravery....yet I thank you for this compliment.

Unless Senator Modo publicly apologises for his slight on Aquavian Lungarius good character then I propose he be severly punished for his abuse of his status.

Only the Senate can decide on such a matter of collective censure, and so I make no comment.

[Beta]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Both these senators make some sound and rational arguments!!

However senator Aquavian Lungarius , Rome is neither a democracy nor an empire!!!

Rome is a republic that is run by its senate!!! and you Sir are bound by the Senates decisions via the polls that you should hold prior to your term !!!

Unfortunately my dear Chrisius ... this is not a perfect world, and we are not a perfect government. There is no perfect senate, and no perfect leader. We are a government of human beings, each with our own thoughts and tendencies. A government therefore doomed to imperfection.

But out of this imperfection arises leadership in the form of our emperor, and collective ...often chaotic .. advice from the senate floor. And from this imperfect dynamic, this cauldron of human ideas and experience we know as The Republic, we move forward. And as long as Rome moves forward, I for one, am a content senator.

Senator Optimus Betarius.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Modo44

I have never used this word when talking about Senator Aquavian Lungarius. Not being brave is still far from being a coward. Very far, to my understanding. It was not my words which bloated a simple statement into a so called "insult", so please, don't judge me so easily.

Once again the Emperor Modo tries to play games with the English language.

The actual statement was:

Originally posted by Modo44
Though courage is not one of your virtues, methiks.

Lack of courage <--> Cowardice

Please explain the difference Emperor, should you still wish to assert your above claim.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Certainly.....as soon as you retract your charge of cowardice and apoligise unreservedly.

Like I said, I never called anyone a coward. Ergo, there is nothing to retract.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Modo44
I admit I have spoken harsh words, but I did so with sincere concern for the Roman Empire and it's people. I am not sorry for what I have said and will not recall it.

Then I demand the censure of Emperor Modo by the Senate.

However, I now understand that the points I made about the Celtic threat are neither obvious nor certain.

Nor correct.

It seems that neither one of us can convince the other. Therefore no further discussion (not demagogy ) seems possible.

Largely because you refuse to address the issues I have raised and you refuse to respond to my comments.....simply because you know you cannot

I say let us lay down the arms (20 men, Senator Gamecube? Why not a whole Legion? )

I have no idea what you are talking about!

and return to the matters at hand, by which I mean the near future of the Empire. Can we do that?

Certainly.....as soon as you retract your charge of cowardice and apoligise unreservedly.

[Modo44]

I will not be silenced by others calling my statements insults. Which is exactly what an apology would achieve. As long as I am a free citizen, I retain the right to have my own opinion about people. And to state it whenever I want to, which is what I did. It would be "sensible" to understand this point of view and get over it.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Well whatever interpretation you put on it it would be sensible to retract your statement of two days ago and apologise !!!

Then we can all get back to focusing on the running of the REPUBLIC!!! thats REPUBLIC!!!

[Modo44]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
I stated yesterday that Senator Modo should apologise for his accusation of cowardice, and that is still my position. However Sir I also feel you too owe apology to the senate for your slight against our true importance !!!

I have never used this word when talking about Senator Aquavian Lungarius. Not being brave is still far from being a coward. Very far, to my understanding. It was not my words which bloated a simple statement into a so called "insult", so please, don't judge me so easily.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Both these senators make some sound and rational arguments!!

However senator Aquavian Lungarius , Rome is neither a democracy nor an empire!!!

Rome is a republic that is run by its senate!!! and you Sir are bound by the Senates decisions via the polls that you should hold prior to your term !!!

Countless times in your protestations here you have again and again said blatantly that you ignored and would again ignore the Senate!!!

By your own words you seek to condemn your self!!!

I stated yesterday that Senator Modo should apologise for his accusation of cowardice, and that is still my position. However Sir I also feel you too owe apology to the senate for your slight against our true importance !!!

You sir were entrusted to carry out the senates wishes, no Senator has the right to deviate grossly from that path!!! I sir spoke of inexperience yesterday to attempt to salvage your reputation from potential ruin. You are not here to implement your own will!! you are here to carry forth the wishes of the Senate!!!

It is only the fact that , and I have stated this already, that on the whole your term produced good results for Rome that I have deffered from calling for your head!!!

If you should continue to belittle the Senate with your misguided assertions that you know best then I will withdraw my support from your corner!!!

It is the responsibility of all Emporers appointed by the Senate to carry forth the Senates choices, no man has the right to ride roughshod over the Senate!!!

Any Senator who finds himself in a similar situation in future should have the wisdom to seek support for his ideas through debate and reasoned argument. Not risk the division of the whole Senate in the way Senator Aquavian Lungarius has.

I stand by my assertion of your inexperience Senator, for you have reinforced this assertion by your continued ramblings here, it is now time to preserve what is left of your good name and accept you have made a mistake here apologise to the senate and hope that the good things achieved during your term will sway enough Senators to call for clemency !!!

As for Senator Modo he stands on shakier ground to my mind unless he retracts his accusation of cowardice!!! we can not allow such blatant abuse of Senatorial powers to be used to pursue petty minded private squabbles and personal mudslinging.

I senator Chrisius Maximus hereby attest that Senator Aquavian Lungarius is of the bravest men of Rome and as such deserves the due and proper respect.

Unless Senator Modo publicly apologises for his slight on Aquavian Lungarius good character then I propose he be severly punished for his abuse of his status.

[Modo44]

I admit I have spoken harsh words, but I did so with sincere concern for the Roman Empire and it's people. I am not sorry for what I have said and will not recall it.

However, I now understand that the points I made about the Celtic threat are neither obvious nor certain. It seems that neither one of us can convince the other. Therefore no further discussion (not demagogy ) seems possible. I say let us lay down the arms (20 men, Senator Gamecube? Why not a whole Legion? ) and return to the matters at hand, by which I mean the near future of the Empire. Can we do that?

[Aqualung71]

Some very strange responses from the Emperor Modo here. There doesn't seem to be much worthy of response as I'm sure most good Senators will agree, but my esteemed and vliant colleague has courageously taken the floor yet again against the odds, so he deserves a reply

Originally posted by Modo44

You forgot to put an OOC (out of character) warning here.

As much as I would like to respond to this impassioned plea, I truly have no idea what you're talking about here. Please confine your ramblings to something that makes sens

Dangerous by allowing the barbarians to keep growing, while we had the means to crush them once and for good. Unexpected mercy from a Roman Emperor.

Sigh . They won't. We didn't. And it's called intelligence, not mercy.

Except when you ingnore the advice. Because that makes the Senate a completely irrelevant part of the Empire. Certainly that is not what we intended here.

I've answered this already, but I will again - I continued most Senate-backed strategy, and adjusted other strategy faced with the situation on the ground as it unfolded. I thank the Senate for their guidance, and for the trust they have showed in me to wield executive power when necessary.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't a war with stronger Celts be distracting our forces from the already planned invasion against Macedonia? Yes, we'll probably handle the barbarians without too many losses, but it will tie some of our forces. Numerous the Legions may be, but they are not without limit.

Ok....you are wrong. The Celts won't be stronger. If they are, we shll be stronger by a factor of several times. We can pick and choose our eventual re-invasion, and there is nothing to say we need to attack the Celts again before we invade Macedonia.

Well said. So instead of finishing this war fast, you decided to leave the matter for others to handle at some point later on. Because, let's face it, Rome will probably have to fight the Celts and some other tribes at the same time. Great job giving up the responsibility for others to handle.

I take full responsibility for my actions. I stand by my decisions. History shall be the judge, and it shall be a kind judge of my rule. There si not doubt that later Emperors of Rome shall be in a stronger position than they otherwise would should the Emperor Aquavian Lungarius not held the reins of power. Deny this, good sir, at the risk of ridicule.

It should be noted, that you didn't manage to, after all.

Yes, I did. I referred to it. I didn't respond to it. It was therefore ignored. Please don't try to engage me in a battle of semantics over the English language

My friend. As a wise man once said, divide et impera. Do you really think a true leader need use such methods as direct disobedience to do what he thinks is best? This constitutes not a leader, but a person who doesn't care for the voice of his people. In other words, I never had to act against the Senate. I acted as the Senators suggested, because they were wise enought to accept the directions I proposed.

Here I am repeating myself again....one does not owe a duty of obedience to an advisory body, but a duty of placing their advice under consideration. I did so, and I made executive decisions, as you did.

Well thank you.

You are welcome. Credit given, where credit due

Yes it was and it didn't need much more to make that growth even better. But let's not brag about this. I agree that you did a great job concerning domestic affairs.

Thank you

Well, doing things with far reaching consequences without listening to the Senate is not exacty what I call "leadership". It seems more like the "I know better than all of you, so you better listen to me!" attitude. Truly "worthy" of an Emperor, or dare I say, truly selfish.

From what I have read so far, the Senate in general agrees with the "far-reaching consequences" of my actions. I have displayed true leadership. Selfishness? Ha! I spit with scorn on such a ridiculous and insulting charge (yet again!). The Roman people have benefitted from my decisions. My selfishness extends only to my desire for the betterment of the lot of the Roman people. If that is selfishness, then yes I am selfish. So be it!

Oh please, do you really have to resort to demagogy? Please, don't twist my words. Yes, the Gallic Swordsman is weaker than our units, I know that. But ask yourself this: wouldn't you rather face even weaker units instead? Because, had you continued the invasion, you'd be only fighting Spearmen and Archers. Or are our Legions afraid of Archers now? Ah, you expose your weakness, Emperor.

Demagogy? . I did not twist your words at all - I quoted you directly and responded within the context. So if you now admit that the Gallic Swordsman is weaker than our units, why did you previously claim not to know this fact? The rest of your argument is pointless.

Finally some rational argument.

My entire argument has been rational and so far, has not been disproved.

When I left the Empire, there were Legions ready to reinforce the Celtic invasion. Yes, you might have needed to wait for reinforcements, before the 3 Legions could resume their march. But after that, they could and should have left the city and be headed north.

This would have delayed the push south. This would have been unacceptable. The threat from Carthage must be met immediately with irresistable force. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, dear Emperor.

Spoken like a true dictator. Oh, what has become of the Roman Democracy.

Democracy? I know of no such word. Please explain, Emperor. Our Empire is ruled by an Emperor (Empire --> Emperor), who is advised by the Senate. Seems to work well for me

[Paddy]

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Oh so this is what we are doing, are we Emperor? So you confess to deliberately wasting the Senate's time with idle gossip and shenanigans such as this, when we are at war with Carthage? Such chatter is below an Emperor good sir, and I publicly castigate you for lowering the office of Emperor to such a standard!

You forgot to put an OOC (out of character) warning here.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Rather a contradiction, wouldn't you agree? If the invasion can be "reinforced without any problems", how can halting it be dangerous? In fact, I should go so far as to suggest that "dangerously cautious" is almost a contradiction in terms, but I do not wish to embarrass you further.

Dangerous by allowing the barbarians to keep growing, while we had the means to crush them once and for good. Unexpected mercy from a Roman Emperor.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
I deliberately acted against the Senate's advice. The Senate does not make leadership decisions, but offers advice in assisting the Emperor govern the empire.

Except when you ingnore the advice. Because that makes the Senate a completely irrelevant part of the Empire. Certainly that is not what we intended here.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
The Celts have a total of 6 or 7 cities, rather sparsely improved. They are not a threat, and they will be better dealt with once Rome expands further north (using the Citizens I have already sent in that direction).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't a war with stronger Celts be distracting our forces from the already planned invasion against Macedonia? Yes, we'll probably handle the barbarians without too many losses, but it will tie some of our forces. Numerous the Legions may be, but they are not without limit.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
In short, Emperor Modo, you would have Rome stretch her military resources dangerously thin by continuing with this suicidal military strategy of a 2-front war!

Well said. So instead of finishing this war fast, you decided to leave the matter for others to handle at some point later on. Because, let's face it, Rome will probably have to fight the Celts and some other tribes at the same time. Great job giving up the responsibility for others to handle.

Originally posted by Aqualung71

Originally posted by Modo44
Oh, you mean the long term benefit of making the Senate unimportant in directing the Empire?

This contemptuous and inflammatory statement belittles the important role our great Senate plays in the wheel of government, and accordingly I shall ignore it!

It should be noted, that you didn't manage to, after all.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Then you good sir, while undoubtedly an efficient administrator, are not a leader!

My friend. As a wise man once said, divide et impera. Do you really think a true leader need use such methods as direct disobedience to do what he thinks is best? This constitutes not a leader, but a person who doesn't care for the voice of his people. In other words, I never had to act against the Senate. I acted as the Senators suggested, because they were wise enought to accept the directions I proposed.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
And you have my compliments on your efficient handling of the administration of Rome. You are indeed, an excellent bureaucrat .

Well thank you.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, I think it speaks for itself that I was able to double the shield production of Rome in the 5 turns under my rule. Yes, the empire was growing under your rule. It grew substantially faster under mine. End of story.

Yes it was and it didn't need much more to make that growth even better. But let's not brag about this. I agree that you did a great job concerning domestic affairs.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Thank you. I built upon those good strategies, and I amended those "not so good" strategies and implemented more beneficial ones. Again, that demonstrates leadership.

Well, doing things with far reaching consequences without listening to the Senate is not exacty what I call "leadership". It seems more like the "I know better than all of you, so you better listen to me!" attitude. Truly "worthy" of an Emperor, or dare I say, truly selfish.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Either the Celtic Swordsman is stronger than our Legionaries, or he is not. He is not. Period. Furthermore, he is even weaker against our Heavy Cavalry. Period. Never to have to find out? We already know! Ah, you expose your weakness Emperor!

Oh please, do you really have to resort to demagogy? Please, don't twist my words. Yes, the Gallic Swordsman is weaker than our units, I know that. But ask yourself this: wouldn't you rather face even weaker units instead? Because, had you continued the invasion, you'd be only fighting Spearmen and Archers. Or are our Legions afraid of Archers now? Ah, you expose your weakness, Emperor.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Yes, you attacked and captured the closest Celtic town, a laudable and courageous action indeed . But the success went to your head and you ignored the effect geography has on military strength in the pursuit of further glories.

Finally some rational argument.

When I left the Empire, there were Legions ready to reinforce the Celtic invasion. Yes, you might have needed to wait for reinforcements, before the 3 Legions could resume their march. But after that, they could and should have left the city and be headed north.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Perhaps you are right. Yet in the field I felt that an instant executive decision needed to be made, and I made it. A Senate vote would not have changed my decision.

Spoken like a true dictator. Oh, what has become of the Roman Democracy.

[Gamecube64]

I say we give them both a sword and 5-10 men, send 'em to the coliseum, and see who is left standing after the dust settles.