The Impending Annexation of America

[Reddawg]

It occurs to me that a sizable, most likely a majority, share of the people and official here have come out in an entirely aggressive stance on annexing America, and seemingly ASAP. Far be it from me to deny the common interest of our nation. However, I (and I think I am not alone on this, but I am hereby sounding out everyone's feelings) do not wish our nation to continue this nearly unbroken chain of warfare and militaristic expansion that started with the French war. Some people even speak of soon attacking France after America.

What I wish to have is concessions, and I mean political ones. There is no pressing need for the American territories; there is no particular value (you may argue, the incense, but we already have an incense surplus) to their land: it is not any more valuable than land elsewhere. Our nation is far past needing a time of consolidation; a Pax Apolytonia if you will. We are now a major power, but this is provided only by the largeness of our territory and our military. Economically, scientifically, structurally, we are straggling. Any concerted offensive effort by other large powers would meet an Apolyton who has strong offense but within it's territories is laughably underdeveloped.

So, the concessions I desire (both officially as Minister of the Economy and unofficially as a citizen and Statistician) is that the American Annexation will put a moratorium on any war for the next 5 turn chats within these conditions:
1. Any invasion (e.g. another nation instigating a war) should be met only with defensive and limited offensive reactions. This means should a nation declare war on us, we will not attempt any further conquests than needed to re-secure peace and continue consolidation.
2. In no case whatsoever will warmongers in Apolyton push for war with France or any other power, great or small, unless a 2/3 majority votes for the war, and all cabinet ministers concede to these actions. The reasons for going into such a war must be pressing and decidely necessary (example: we lack a certain resource in our territory, cannot trade for it, and so must go to war to claim in).
3. During these 5 turnchats of Pax Apolytonia efforts will be made to: develop the infrastrucutre of our nation, promote the scientific community, and strengthen the economy. As a concession to the warmongers, it will be guaranteed that the military will also be kept up-to-date and maintained a sufficient size (example, a guarantee to maintain the military service rate at a minimum of 7 years [this is the rate at which we found ourselves in 170 AD] and a maximum of 10 years).

All proposals herein are just that: proposals. I recognize that any such concessions will require both a vote and perhaps, upon review, an ammendment to the constitution. But I feel that it is vital and necessary that such strong efforts be taken to secure the internal growth of our nation, and in such an official and role-playing oriented manner.

signed,
Reddawg, Minister of the Economy
September 28, 2002 / September 28, 380 AD
the Royal Apolytonian Economy HQ in Apolyton, Apolytonia

[Duddha]

I spit on this patch of lies! War has and will always be the future of Apolyton. You ask why we need war, here are some reasons:

1. America and France are our sworn enemys.

2. We are far from a Pax Apolytonia. We are currently slightly more powerful than our neghbors, individualy. Our superiority is still not certian, only by defeating our neighbors on the battlefield will we create a true Peace.(really! we are playing on Emporer, the computer can build and reaserch faster then we could ever hope to. Only if we corner them militarily will we win!)

3. If we capture the American incense market we will control most of the world's supply. We can then gain more wealth and build and reaserch faster!(what the builders want!)

4. We can build infrastructure while we conquer. Look at all we have already achieved. We have gained three! wonders through conquest. The builder policy is not only achievable through peace, war is actually better for builders.

If we stop our conquests after Persia we are surely doomed! Our neighbors are not peace lovers like many in our nation, made evident when Germany and Persia declared war on US! We can not allow ourselves to be put in a position where we can be bullied. War is our only future. If you listen to these lies the Great Banana will strike thee down!

Signed,
Duddha, Lord Protector of El Nino

[Duddha]

In no case whatsoever will warmongers in Apolyton push for war with France or any other power, great or small, unless a 2/3 majority votes for the war, and all cabinet ministers concede to these actions. The reasons for going into such a war must be pressing and decidely necessary (example: we lack a certain resource in our territory, cannot trade for it, and so must go to war to claim in).

I thought it was only a majority of the public had to vote in favor. I couldn't find the part relating to war in the CoL, can some one clear this up?

[Duddha]

3. During these 5 turnchats of Pax Apolytonia efforts will be made to: develop the infrastrucutre of our nation, promote the scientific community, and strengthen the economy. As a concession to the warmongers, it will be guaranteed that the military will also be kept up-to-date and maintained a sufficient size (example, a guarantee to maintain the military service rate at a minimum of 7 years [this is the rate at which we found ourselves in 170 AD] and a maximum of 10 years).

FIVE turnchats! Are you joking, the computer will be the the industrial age by then!

I propose that with the invasion of America we use some WCs to trigger our GA. We can then use the boost to finish off France and one other, ensuring a true Pax Apolytonia that will propell us high above our competitors.

[Duddha]

1. Any invasion (e.g. another nation instigating a war) should be met only with defensive and limited offensive reactions. This means should a nation declare war on us, we will not attempt any further conquests than needed to re-secure peace and continue consolidation.

Do you wish to wait for Germany to build an army and crush us? The best defense is a good offense!

[Reddawg]

First, a point-by-point rebuttal of Duddha's response:
1. Sworn-enemies America may be, and I have already conceded to a final war with them. But why France as well? If France, why not Persia, and Germany? and then the rest of the world?! It is ludicrous to maintain grudges.
2. Our superiority on the continent is only contested by Greece; we are growing at a rate much faster than any other nation (in most respects). It is through consolidation that our conquests from France, America, and Persia will secure our superiority (no matter how much an advantage the AI has, with a much larger and stronger basis from which to research, grow, etc., we will still surpass them).
3. As I say in rebuttal #3, the American annexation is a concession I've already made!
4. In no way, shape, or form are we able to build nearly as much during times of war as during peace. Entire swaths of our land is too hostile to allow the workers to build roads and irrigate; military regiments are constantly in need of replenishment and thus drain resources out of the cities that could be, and need to be, direct elsewhere.

The Protector of El Niño would do well to support my proposal, keeping in mind that his trifling province is well on it's way to be the scumbasket of our nation.

Originally posted by Duddha
I thought it was only a majority of the public had to vote in favor. I couldn't find the part relating to war in the CoL, can some one clear this up?

That may be, I probably confused it with the U.S. Constitution

[Reddawg]

Originally posted by Duddha


FIVE turnchats! Are you joking, the computer will be the the industrial age by then!

I propose that with the invasion of America we use some WCs to trigger our GA. We can then use the boost to finish off France and one other, ensuring a true Pax Apolytonia that will propell us high above our competitors.

A compromise can be made on the amount of turnchats, but less than 3 will be pointless. Five is what would benefit our nation the most.
To suggest a war against America, France, and then even ANOTHER civ is pure warmonger spittle! Bah! Have you ever heard of the concept of "over-extension"?

[Duddha]

2. Our superiority on the continent is only contested by Greece; we are growing at a rate much faster than any other nation (in most respects). It is through consolidation that our conquests from France, America, and Persia will secure our superiority (no matter how much an advantage the AI has, with a much larger and stronger basis from which to research, grow, etc., we will still surpass them).

The reason our power is growing faster than them is because of our wars. If we conquer Greece our superiority is assured. We could do it during a GA.

ay, shape, or form are we able to build nearly as much during times of war as during peace. Entire swaths of our land is too hostile to allow the workers to build roads and irrigate; military regiments are constantly in need of replenishment and thus drain resources out of the cities that could be, and need to be, direct elsewhere.

Slaves bring free labour to our lands. GLs bring free wonders. A war together with a good city planner means optimal growth, because a good city planner can expand our armies and meet the needs of our towns at the same time, like Godking has been doing.

[Duddha]

To suggest a war against America, France, and then even ANOTHER civ is pure warmonger spittle!

Me a warmonger?... no

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I think the American annexation should be viewed as the closing battle of Franco-Persian War (it's one war, the Persians are simply the only one of our opponents still fighting). We can completely annex them in one turn if our units are properly positioned.

America is important for the following reasons:

1) Further solidifies our hold on the incense market
2) Increases the likilyhood of having Saltpeter
3) Gives us a shot at having an Oil resource, right now the ONLY possible place we could get an Oil resource in the plains on Uber Island

After this, I feel a period of peace is justified while we concentrate on our cities and improve their surrounding terrain.

[Thud]

You all know what my opinion is going to be, but here it is anyhow: I completely and unconditionally agree!

[Reddawg]

Despite Duddha's persistent espousal of continued wars, I feel support for this attempted Pax Apolytonia or at least a fair go at it. I hope I've rebutted the warmonger views thoroughly enough; but surely you all have more opinions on this matter. Thank you to Ghengis and Thud for your support.

[GePap]

While I support the notion of a Pax Apolytonia and oposed Duddha's thirst for blood and endless war, we must take America to make this peace a reality.

First, Ghengis makes good points about market share and future resurces. While we are almost guaranteed coal and rubber, oil wil be a problem. Then there is the fact that American lands are higly productive, and will fare beter under our administration that Abe's.

Then there are basic geostrategic, concerns. Our borders with America are wide open. An invading army has a wide open plain to strike as the border is now. We can't afford such an open border- taking the American lands gives us a smaller, easier to control border. It also allows us to project power into the north that much easier- if we ever go to war with germany, it gives us the ability to flank the mountainous border. It would also not be wise to let those lands fall under Aztec control, as it would make us and them more likely to be enemies, not friends. The Americans have spearmen, the aztecs have knights. Ho much longer can America survive?

[Reddawg]

I agree with all the points made in regard to America and disagree with all points supporting further wars. This is why I wish to make official an intent to maintain a lengthy peace upon completion of the annexation of America.

[History Guy]

My thoughts are that this war should be the last for a while, unless we are forced into another. Our victory over the French, German, and Persian civilizations was a masterpiece of warfare, and most certainly it helped to cement ourselves as a people. However, that war is one thing, and I hope we never have to fight against such heavy odds again for some time, if ever. I think what we should concentrate on in the years to come is improving our culture, and making great leaps of science, becoming more than in empire, but in truth a great civilization.

However, I think, for reasons stated above by Genghis and Ge Pap, that it would be best to move into America, and annex it's remnants, for the land and the resources. If we do not do this, the Aztecs will, and that would most certainly not be a very good thing for us. I most certainly would not be pleased to have the Aztecs as neighbors. If we wait for them to conquer Mr. Lincoln's 'empire', they will have the American incense and the lands (in which we may find saltpetre in the times to come), and we will have nothing for it but new, more aggressive and dangerous neighbors. I think we must strike now, and annex America, and then we must effect this Pax Apolytonia. This is, I think, what is best for our country, and for our civilization.