The Impending Annexation of America

[UnOrthOdOx]

Re: The Impending Annexation of America

Originally posted by Reddawg
these conditions:
1. Any invasion (e.g. another nation instigating a war) should be met only with defensive and limited offensive reactions. This means should a nation declare war on us, we will not attempt any further conquests than needed to re-secure peace and continue consolidation.
2. In no case whatsoever will warmongers in Apolyton push for war with France or any other power, great or small, unless a 2/3 majority votes for the war, and all cabinet ministers concede to these actions. The reasons for going into such a war must be pressing and decidely necessary (example: we lack a certain resource in our territory, cannot trade for it, and so must go to war to claim in).
3. During these 5 turnchats of Pax Apolytonia efforts will be made to: develop the infrastrucutre of our nation, promote the scientific community, and strengthen the economy. As a concession to the warmongers, it will be guaranteed that the military will also be kept up-to-date and maintained a sufficient size (example, a guarantee to maintain the military service rate at a minimum of 7 years [this is the rate at which we found ourselves in 170 AD] and a maximum of 10 years).

Reddawg has found some hard to read colors...
I am seriously limited on time at the moment. I will reply with more on Monday.

First, I wish to thank Reddawg for pointing out another point where the CoL lacks. Declaring war. #2 while not constitutional, as there is nothing on DECLARING war, is surely against the spirit of democracy. I assure you that if a 2/3 vote passes to declare war, and the ministers choose to ignore it, I will call for an injuncture and impeachment of all ministers denying the people their will.

I hope SirRalph gets here to speak on this in the mean time.

Why must it always be oneway or the other? Why are we always saying build OR war?

Both can be accomplished:

War on america will befought largely with survivors of Persian war. There will be few reqests for new units.

This continued war will have no adverse effects while in Monarchy.

I would support a switch to Republic after that point, in the meantime we can still work on getting markets and Libraries up.

As a 'warmonger' I play while in a Republic most of the game. Wars can be fought easily in Republic if you keep them under 20 turns.

I see this plan covers only Science. That is a fault. We must work diligently to increase our PRODUCTION. This is perhaps a worse shape than Science. We have Luxuries to trade to help with buying tech. You can't trade for a FP... Therefore we should include a plan to mine all areas of the Olde Penninsula, clear more jungle, include workers in that build list above...and so on.

Warmongering is approaching a Hiatus soon for the mere fact we can no longer build units fast enough. After the American war a buildup of the military will be needed before launching another attack or being able to pose a decent defense against a serious threat.

I think an agreement can be reached that is not all war or all builder. Why not have both? Gain more GL's, resources and enjoy the benefits of the greatest infrastructure in the game?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Re: Re: The Impending Annexation of America

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx

Reddawg has found some hard to read colors...

He's posting in "stealth" mode........

[Aggie]

Reddawg, I have no plans to push another war right after america. The reason is very simple. We will be unable to support one, our defenses are thin and our offense is limited. We will need time to build our pike defense(i desire 2 pike for every border city. Additionally I do propose a offensive force be created. This force will consist of 2 armies of 10knights each. So do the the math it will take awhile to build these forces, so we probably want fight another war for a while. However after these forces are ready I will propose a war against france or germany to consolidate are border, but this war is far away. However I will make sure building of the army does occur during our peaceful stage. Remember this war lasted so long because we had to build an army. This way future wars will be much shorter and we will attack the enemy before they have strong defenses. So in our time of peace coming let us not neglect our defenses. But as unortho says we can do both I EXPECT libraies universities to be built side by side with pike and knights. Perhaps we can have this build culture, miltary, then science building of course our culture building must be cathedrals. After the war I say we all have a special chat where we decide the future queues. for the record I say we switch to republic the second the persian war is over, the american war simply will be over too fast for unhappiness to affect us.
Aggie

[GePap]

It may be wise to begin our war with America after we renegotiate all our peace treaties, which is something that is coming up soon. That way, we make it diplomatically damaging for any civs to ally with America. In fact, an allience with the aztecs against the Americans might be a great diplomatic excuse, and we make the Aztecs more friendly also. But again, this should be done soon, perhaps even before we make peace with Persia. I think people forget America's utter weakness. It would be an extremely quick campaign, if planned well



And for those who ike their eyesight:

It may be wise to begin our war with America after we renegotiate all our peace treaties, which is something that is coming up soon. That way, we make it diplomatically damaging for any civs to ally with America. In fact, an allience with the aztecs against the Americans might be a great diplomatic excuse, and we make the Aztecs more friendly also. But again, this should be done soon, perhaps even before we make peace with Persia. I think people forget America's utter weakness. It would be an extremely quick campaign, if planned well

[adaMada]

Re: The Impending Annexation of America

Originally posted by Reddawg
It occurs to me that a sizable, most likely a majority, share of the people and official here have come out in an entirely aggressive stance on annexing America, and seemingly ASAP. Far be it from me to deny the common interest of our nation. However, I (and I think I am not alone on this, but I am hereby sounding out everyone's feelings) do not wish our nation to continue this nearly unbroken chain of warfare and militaristic expansion that started with the French war. Some people even speak of soon attacking France after America.

I make no comment on attacking France after America -- if I can be convinced that there will be a discrete advantage to doing it, then I will support it. Otherwise, I will not for the immediate future.

What I wish to have is concessions, and I mean political ones. There is no pressing need for the American territories; there is no particular value (you may argue, the incense, but we already have an incense surplus) to their land: it is not any more valuable than land elsewhere. Our nation is far past needing a time of consolidation; a Pax Apolytonia if you will. We are now a major power, but this is provided only by the largeness of our territory and our military. Economically, scientifically, structurally, we are straggling. Any concerted offensive effort by other large powers would meet an Apolyton who has strong offense but within it's territories is laughably underdeveloped.

The American territories are wonderfully located, have magnificant resources, and may soon be the property of the Aztecs, especially with the Greek-Aztec war recently ending. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, the Americans have terratory (and, as such, potential resources) that we lack -- it wouldn't be nice if we deided not to take them, only to have a rare resource pop up there in the future.

So, the concessions I desire (both officially as Minister of the Economy and unofficially as a citizen and Statistician) is that the American Annexation will put a moratorium on any war for the next 5 turn chats within these conditions:

Who knows where we'll be in five turn chats? That's something in the range of twenty five turns -- not an insignificant amount of time.

1. Any invasion (e.g. another nation instigating a war) should be met only with defensive and limited offensive reactions. This means should a nation declare war on us, we will not attempt any further conquests than needed to re-secure peace and continue consolidation.

Our war against the Germans, if nothing else, has proven one fact -- even when the AI has the advantage, it will be willing to accept peace if you start taking or razing cities. This is a consistant pattern we've seen throughout all our wars, and it would be a shame to prohibit this strategy.

Furthermore, I think that defensive wars offer one major opportunity -- to solidify boarders. It's a chance to take a pesky AI city and get rid of it. Though I would also be in full support of a culture building and flipping strategy, I would urge that we consider boarder solidifications as an important part of any defensive war.

2. In no case whatsoever will warmongers in Apolyton push for war with France or any other power, great or small, unless a 2/3 majority votes for the war, and all cabinet ministers concede to these actions. The reasons for going into such a war must be pressing and decidely necessary (example: we lack a certain resource in our territory, cannot trade for it, and so must go to war to claim in).

I'd have to agree with UnOrthOdOx that this is unconstitutional; by both making it possible for the Cabinet Ministers to override the people's will, and removing the Foreign Ministry (where, if I recall correctly, the power lies now) from the process.

I agree, however, that we should only go to war for necessary reasons or opportunities that we won't have in the future (such as the American war).

3. During these 5 turnchats of Pax Apolytonia efforts will be made to: develop the infrastrucutre of our nation, promote the scientific community, and strengthen the economy. As a concession to the warmongers, it will be guaranteed that the military will also be kept up-to-date and maintained a sufficient size (example, a guarantee to maintain the military service rate at a minimum of 7 years [this is the rate at which we found ourselves in 170 AD] and a maximum of 10 years).

I dislike the lack of flexability this plan offers -- tying our Miltiary to a certain strength is always unwise (remember, as our cities become more valuable, it'll become important to protect them better, which will lead to a larger military, and we will need to maintain a small offensive force to threaten cities for better peace terms and to destroy enemy invaders at the boarders).

All proposals herein are just that: proposals. I recognize that any such concessions will require both a vote and perhaps, upon review, an ammendment to the constitution. But I feel that it is vital and necessary that such strong efforts be taken to secure the internal growth of our nation, and in such an official and role-playing oriented manner.

Let me congradulate Reddawg on an excellently worded and well thought out proposal. I agree totally with very of it , but I think he did a very good job of making his case, and should be commended.

signed,
Reddawg, Minister of the Economy
September 28, 2002 / September 28, 380 AD
the Royal Apolytonian Economy HQ in Apolyton, Apolytonia

--------
adaMada, Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs
September 28, 2002; 430 AD
Secret Foreign Ministry Bunker, Persian Boarder

[Harovan]

1st note: Stop with these crazy colors. Not all people are browsing this forum with Civ3 style settings, and Reddawgs initial post looks weird on standard Apolyton grey.

2nd note: GhengisFarb is right, we need terrain that could give us oil and saltpeter. Btw: The Uber isle plains won't have oil. Oil terrain is only desert and tundra.

3rd note: Warfare is still easy, cities are still small and there's no draft unhappiness. We should use this as long as it lasts.

4th note: We're still largely stuck in jungle and our cities are rather unproductive. Building libraries and universities won't help if we don't make enough commerce. We still need war to keep up in tech. Btw: If Persia gives us 2 techs for peace, we should take them and finish Persia 20 turns later.

[Reddawg]

Re: Re: The Impending Annexation of America

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
...I see this plan covers only Science. That is a fault. We must work diligently to increase our PRODUCTION...

...I think an agreement can be reached that is not all war or all builder. Why not have both? Gain more GL's, resources and enjoy the benefits of the greatest infrastructure in the game?

Well, this proposal most definitely does not only cover science! See point three, which stresses first infrastructure, second science, and third economy.

As for "all war or all builder", that's not what I was intending to propose. I realize that a standard war does not completely halt all building. However it severely hampers it, and as we have been in an extended period of war, a period of peace (again, the Pax Apolytonia) is needed to compensate.

[Reddawg]

Originally posted by Aggie
...I do propose a offensive force be created...
Aggie

Point 3 also supplies for this military build up to be part of the peace.

[Arnelos]

Reddawg,

I must agree with most other posters that I fully agree with the sentiment and general argument of your proposal: The war with America, should it occur (which I and others believe it should), should be our LAST war for quite some time. From a strictly pragmatic standpoint, Aggie has hit on why this is the case: we simply don't have the military forces to sustain warfare beyond America.

We need to devote a rather significant period of time to building up our infrastructure and building a much larger military force in order to sustain another conflict. Duddha's wish to immediately go to war with other civs is simply dumb, even from a warrior standpoint (as Aggie correctly points out).

So from both a builder AND a warrior standpoint, it is in our *pragmatic* interests to stop all war after the hopeful annexation of America and concentrate on our infrastructure.

I would assert that one of the areas that has been largely neglected in the discussion of this is the need to expand the Ministry of Public Works. With the job of clearing the huge jungle on top of improving the areas around our cities, the Ministry of Public Works will need a MAJOR expansion. This will drain from both the production and population of our cities for a time, but the benefits are WELL worth it. I agree with Unortho that the workers should focus on increasing industrial production through building mines, then focus on irrigation to increase pop.

Beyond that, our cities should focus on temples, marketplaces and libraries as being required in EVERY city (I'd require barracks as well, but Szun Szu's covers that ), with courthouses, aqueducts, universities, cathedrals, colloseums, and banks (eventually...) where appropriate (especially in major production centers).

I agree with both Reddawg and Aggie that we need to build up an offensive military force during this period which could be put to use at the end of this period of intensive building. However, I believe we should build the infrastructure FIRST (workers, improvements) before cities switch over to building knights. For pikemen, however, those should be built early (perhaps even befor the workers for border cities), as I agree with Aggie that every border city needs 2 pike as defense and sooner rather than later.

I STRONGLY agree with Unortho (in fact, I've been arguing for this for at least a week, almost alone on the boards...) that we should switch to Republic as soon as the Persian war is successfully concluded. I, as with Unortho, have played MANY a game where I warmongered throughout the game as a republic. It is EASY to do if you keep your wars short, which is precisely what we want to do with our war against America. If part of the entire point of going to war with America is to trigger our GA, it would help IMMEASURABLY if we do so while already under republic rather than wasting part of our GA under monarchy or while switching in between (even if that's only 1 turn because we're religious).

I'll also cite Aggie's statement that the war with America can and most likely will be fought with the survivors of the Persian war. This is precisely what I've been arguing over the past week on the forums: that our cities should go ahead and switch to building workers and improvements (especially courthouses in cities with high corruption and libraries in cities with high trade) so that we can take maximum advantage of every single turn of our GA under republic once it starts.

This is not an "all builder" strategy. Rather it is a highly *pragmatic* strategy conducive to both a builder AND a warrior strategy. I think all reasonable individuals here in Apolytonia agree that pursuing war after America would be unecessarily over-extending ourselves and we need a period where we build infrastruture to boost production and science.

That said, my specific arguments are that we should switch to republic BEFORE and not after the war with America and that we need to dramatically increase the size of our worker force. I'm far mroe attached to the first than the second, but I'd like to see both accomplished .

Once this period of infrastructure improvement is done, then we can concern ourselves about if and who we should fight next. That's so far down the road that we don't really need to worry about that yet. For now, we really need to worry about infrastructure.

[XOR]

Situation: We have a good army, we have Sun Tzu, we are backwards in tech.

Path A: We leave behind this formidable oportunity to have more cities that will help produce more science and more money to stop war and build some libraries in our still too tiny piece of territory while our mighty slowly armies become obsolete.

Path B: We make use of this formidable oportunity to conquer Persians, Americans and then extort every neigbohr and fight against those that wont give in to our demands. After all, we will change to republic, not democracy, we can still have a few wars.

[astrologix]

I mostly agree with Reddawg and UnOrtho, and agree with GhengisFrab, History Guy, Aggie and Gepap (but no alliance with the Aztecs against the Americans, please)

Here I summarize my points of view (sorry, my English isn't good) :

1. Take Arbela and then sign a peace treaty with the Persian
2. Switch to Republic
3. Prepare a short (1-2 turns) war against America (wipe them out). Trigger the GA while this.
4. Pax Apolytonia, in terms of Reddawg and Aggie
5.... Long life Apolytonia, we are the best

I think a poll is needed at this point

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by astrologix
1. Take Arbela and then sign a peace treaty with the Persian

Yes. Take the tech. Further pushing west would only set up us fighting a culture war with England for control of spices.

2. Switch to Republic

We should wait exactly one turn as war weariness s 'remembered' for two turns. One under Monarchy, and one under chaos.

3. Prepare a short (1-2 turns) war against America (wipe them out). Trigger the GA while this.

Yes, set them up like we did last time. Perhaps a RoP with someone to get us set up properly, but no alliances.

4. Pax Apolytonia, in terms of Reddawg and Aggie

Don't know if I agree on this. Yes we need some buildup, but why restrict it to a specific # of turns? What about when we are ready, need new tech and people want outrageous prices for it? Go smack Otto on the nose again and watch as he whimper's like the dog he is and coughs up tech.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

We need to take Arbela and Antioch. We already have 2 French cities in the middle of our empire to worry about, there is no point in leaving a third enemy city (Antioch) to stab us in the back.

[Reddawg]

The "specific # of turns" is actually just an attempt on my part to keep people from saying "ok we'll have a Pax" and then making it only one turnchat. It doesn't have to be five turnchats but if it's not at least like three then it's pointless.

[Donegeal]

Wow. Some excelent debate going on here (although pretty one sided as Duddha seems to be the only advocate for war.).

As I am always saying, I am a builder, and I suport the idea of a Pax. I also love playing devils advocate, so I'm going to argue in Duddha's cause.

As a builder, I have always been hesitant to go to war until I felt I was (overly) ready. This has been my first experince with a warring stragety and, frankly, I have been quiet astounded. This stagety has brought us from a starting position I would have said no way to, to our current position of becoming an unstoppable superpower. And this on Emporer level. Why stop a strafety that has so obviously work far better than anyone (except for Duddha) would have thought?

At the begining, we took our time and prepared ourselves for the W.O.N with America. Perhaps what we should do after we take out America is build up our forces again and venture out once more. It has worked EXTREMELY well for us before.

Basicly what I'm saying is the old addage of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."


Holy Snot! I'm siding with the A.R.E. again?


And the sworn enemy of my grand Pina Colada?