$Mini-Game TRADING SESSION SEVEN (7)

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Didn't you propose the changes?

No, UnOrthOdOx did.

I agree that three of us are in better position to weather the storm of reduced prices. That's why I believe it better to wait and see what happens.

And its everyone else who is in support of the reduced BR.

Maybe it would be better to keep things more stable (HARR HARR) for a time and attract more players before we hit the industrial age and really need to elaborate a lot. Just my 0.02 Lytons worth.

I want a stable system too as I've had to put off a lot of other projects to work on this system, but the whole purpose of the beta is to work out the kinks and we haven't found a system everyone likes yet. I would rather cement a system so that it will be stable than continue changing everything fo rthe next 6 months.

re the land situation. It just sucks to be me.
I will have no cash and can not bid on any of the lands that I have been eyeing.

The original agreeement was that we couldn't bid on new land until after the grace period so unless there is unanimous agreement to change that I don't fill we should.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

NEW PROPOSAL


So let's say next session:

[b]Buildings and descriptions stay the same.

There are no free vassals for Players, 
you only have those vassals that you have bought.

New Base Rates: Food=$50, Commerce=$25, 
Shields stay the same (this would half the 
selling price of food and commerce)[/b]

This way we can try those changes and see how they work before doing a complete
overhaul.

What are everyone's opinions on this proposal?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I'm saying that these changes come at a very inopportune time for some and a more fortunate time for others.

I will not be able to bid on any lands. I sank a lot of cash into buildings which have just been completed. Some others will be able to buy a lot of land.

The food and commerce imbalance would very properly be addressed by including the production of the lands laying fallow (held in limbo, but abandoned) would they not?

Just like the changing of the original base rate helped some more than others...That is the problem with changes.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Okay, let's see if I understand everyone's problems:

notyoueither
Doesn't want the base rate to drop because? I'm not sure why this is important to him, please explain.

Doesn't want land auction until turn 11 because there are apparently specific tiles he wants to be on and is afraid someone else will get them with out him having a chance. Understand this.


UnOrthOdOx
Wants more land because? Why exactly to you need the land now and not three turns from now, please explain. Is there a specific tile you want.



These appear to be the only concerns that might stop this game so I would like to get the specifics on what your concerns are and what it is you want/need so that it can be resolved by whoever needs to resolve it

[UnOrthOdOx]

Several things here.

I started, and played under Captains original rules. I became VP, and let Ghengis rent the land, for a fair price at that time because I was running EVERYTHING at the time, MrWIA was out of commition, then I had RL issues...

Captains original rules stated that once debt was paid, you could purchase MORE LAND, this promoted a choice: make buildings, or save for more land.

btw, if not all tiles are taken by day 3, that's okay. we'll start anyways, and others can join then as they want. You can bid for up to 3 tiles if the total is less than $1000, or bid any amount for a single tile. After this initial auction, you'll be eligible for another government loan to buy another tile if you're debt free

The rules also had Buildings and Base rates

Buildings were extremely expensive due to the cost of shields and labor, so those were proposed changed, and the idea of vassals came up. People couldn't build AND pay off their debt, so the Base rates were changed instead of paying off the debt, and building after, or facing interest. These are fine in the fact that they sped up building, and increased the amount to DO and have fun with in a turn. They went too far, however, making some items more than tripple in value, labor about half the cost, and buildings cost less than 1/4 the original shields:

Silo (10 shields): Allows stockpiling up to 10 food.
Warehouse (10 shields): Allows stockpiling 10 more shields or commerce.
Inn (40 shields): Converts 1 food into cash for 200% of the market price per turn.
Shop (50 shields): Allows you to sell your merchandise for 20% more*. Up to 3 commerce per turn.
Workshop (70 shields): Allows you to sell shields for 20% more*. Up to 3 shields per turn.

From here, I get totally lost on the changes. I do not know what happened, I only know that I can no longer sell labor that I bought, since city labor is now cheap, and everyone has their own labor free. I know that my ONE commerce sold for over $200 last turn, when Ghengis is only paying me $100 rent (I was only making roughly $120/turn when that deal was made...) I am not even counting whatever profit was made from the sell or use of my Labor.

Based on the original rules, I set out with a plan to pay off my debt ASAP and buy more land. I even chose tiles I could pay off quicker than other people to speed that plan along.

I understand rules have changed, but up till now, those rules have been ones involving HOW the game is played or the specific $ of items. I am even fine with Ghengis getting rich off my land, that was my fault for not paying attention. According to that original rule, however, I should be able to take out a second loan after my debt is paid (I was surprised by that, thought it had to be cash...but that is what I got after looking it up.)

I have not seen where that rule has been changed. I understand that this is a Beta, so things will change, however. Ghengis, don't worry about changing the labor stuff on account of me. People like it this way, fine. We should really only try one change at a time anyway. Changing the base rate should increase the costs of building, labor since the net income will be adjusted. If that is deemed not enough, tweak it more, or change something else.

The buying of new land: Yes, people have sunk alot into building buildings, SOME OF US HAVE NOT BASED ON THE PROMISE OF NEW LAND. I saw it that these were our choices, and chose to push for more land rather than build. If the other rule HAS changed before now, point me towards that discussion. If it did, I should have been building buildings instead of hoarding cash, my mistake. If it did not, I ask if you are interested in the balance of the game, or your own interests on your estate. You all have more earning potential than I do, anyway. Waiting only places an advantage to those of you with the strongest infrastructure. IMO It is the same as in Civ. Build up infrastructure, or expand. You chose build, I chose expand.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

First off, I never tried to scam UnOrthOdOx out of anything, I offered to run his land and the other players who have let me run their land out of a desire to insure they would come back to the game later and not be permanent losses to the player pool.

The first several turns I LOST money running their lands, and it wasn't until the double counting of goods began that I started making a lot of money.

Second, I tried to talk UnOrthOdOx out of buying the 4 vassals when he told me he wanted them, but did so per his instructions. I didn't do that to get free labor for my own use. I simply started building things to compensate for the lost food. (Note that I'm paying UnOrthOdOx $100 a turn for land that produces 1 commerce and no shields)

However, since these accusations of my unethical behaviour have come to light and other insinuations that I run this game for my amusement only, I would like to hereby tender my resignation.

I will compute the final transactions at the end of this turn and the new Banker can start with the next session.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Aw crimey. This is exactly what I was hoping to avoid. I finally find something entertaining to get involved with and it falls apart.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Ghengis.

I am not accusing you of any wrong doing.

You HAVE made SOME cash off my lands for every turn that I have watched. The first one you only made like $5, which is why we changed it from 125 to 100. What has happened since then, I am not sure, but there has been more than 100 each time. I stated I was fine with all deals you have made. But you DID get at least $200 off my lands last turn DESPITE it only producing 1 commerce (the first turn that had happened.) I have no idea if my labor has been used on your stuff or not, nor do I care. You did put them up for sell, I saw. Who bought them, I care not. If you do not make $ this turn, I would of course make it right so that you did. We just should have arranged this as a % to begin with, and all deals should probably be structured that way in the future.

I did make the decision to buy the labor, I have not disputed that. When that decision was made, however, food was going for $40 and labor for $25. It made sense to have 4 $25 items instead of 2 $40. I did not understand how much the D:S would effect things. Fine, my mistake, this is a beta and doesn't matter.

I did not mean to accuse anyone of anything, just to point out problems that I see. Remember I am learning from the original rules, I have not followed all the changes. I was just trying to show how things have changed from when I last was a part of this and am truly sorry if you felt I was accusing you.

Buildings are too cheap now. I think we can all agree that they should not be built in one turn?

I want to know is where the notion that purchasing new land after being debt free is a change to the rules? It was the original plan placed by Captain, when did that change?

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Buildings are too cheap now. I think we can all agree that they should not be built in one turn?

I want to know is where the notion that purchasing new land after being debt free is a change to the rules? It was the original plan placed by Captain, when did that change?

I just went skimming through all the original threads linked in the "Main Thread" so if there are others i didn't look at them.

First Observation
GhengisFarb has been arguing for more expensive buildings since before the game began so I don't see why people are blaming him. It was someone named Frances and Epistax that argued the prices needed to be lowered.

Second Observation
I couldn't find anywhere where it said you couldn't buy more land after you had paid off your debt, nothing, zilch. And I doubt that the players currently are going to buy up all the land before the end of turn 10 anyway.

Third Observation
Ghengis let me buy 4 jungle tiles and the rules said up to 3 so I need to return one or be in violation of the rules. Therefore I propose to return BHQ NW Center11 (jungle), $200. And fill that the price of 1 food from last turn should be removed from my cash account.
(Probably makes a lot more work for Ghengis, but I want to be fair.)

Fourth Observation
If reducing the Base Rate to $50 for food and $25 for commerce will half the current sale prices that should bring them around the area you started at, say $30-40 for food and $50-60 for commerce.

Perhaps notyoueither could sell his Tavern or Shoppe to someone for more $ to bid on land. He still hasn't said which tile he has an eye on.

Final question, who is going to be the Banker next turn? I don't have a clue where all these numbers come from and definitely have NO INTEREST in doing that job myself.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Captains original rules stated that once debt was paid, you could purchase MORE LAND, this promoted a choice: make buildings, or save for more land.

I had thought Captain had said we couldn't buy land except at the auctions and the next auction was supposed to take place at the end of the Grace Period but I couldn't find that anywhere so maybe I just assumed something that never actually happened.

NYW, is there a specific tile(s) you are are interested in or just land in particular as I see no way the player can buy all of the land in the next 3 turns. As for accumulation of $ you are in a position to make more money than anyone else but me with the ability to buy goods at D/S and then sell at a 50% bonus so I think you should easily be able to buy land next turn which is the first turn it would be possible.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Buildings were extremely expensive due to the cost of shields and labor, so those were proposed changed, and the idea of vassals came up. People couldn't build AND pay off their debt, so the Base rates were changed instead of paying off the debt, and building after, or facing interest. These are fine in the fact that they sped up building, and increased the amount to DO and have fun with in a turn. They went too far, however, making some items more than tripple in value, labor about half the cost, and buildings cost less than 1/4 the original shields:

The Base Rate was reduced to LOWER prices, it has never been raised. The higher prices resulted from 3 things:
1)We quit counting our product twice.

2)The population (market nearly doubled) from city growth.

3)We switched to Monarchy which increased the amount of commerce we could sell.

I propose we leave the Grace Period at 15 turns but operate under the original rules that you can buy unowned tiles after you have paid off your debt. And you can borrow money to buy up to 3 new tiles if their total value is less than $1000 or as much as you need on one tile. (nye- if you make $301 this turn you can pay off your debt and be eligible to bid on tiles with a government loan)

We change base rates to $50 for food and $25 for commerce for next turn to see how it effects prices.

We eliminate local vassals, leaving the only source of labor pop from cities and vassals bought from auctions.

How does that sound?

We still need a new Banker as my actions as Banker caused Frances and Epistax to quit and have almost caused notyoueither and UnOrthOdOx to quit.

Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar=
Ghengis let me buy 4 jungle tiles and the rules said up to 3 so I need to return one or be in violation of the rules. Therefore I propose to return BHQ NW Center11 (jungle), $200. And fill that the price of 1 food from last turn should be removed from my cash account.
(Probably makes a lot more work for Ghengis, but I want to be fair.)

That was my fault, I forgot about the 3 tile rule and I will fix it at the close of this session.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I have never considered quitting, and have only been less active due to the pressures of office, and RL business trips which nearly ruined said office as well.

Epistax and Frances quit?

Why?

You have polled on possible changes, tried out the ones proposed by others...what did they object to?

[jdd2007]

i have paid off my debt and now i want to buy, or bid on

(B)....016 Tassagrad N (mined grass rd(2 food, 1 shield, 1 commerce)), $1000

[UnOrthOdOx]

jdd, you may want to wait till NEXT turn on that. There is some confusion on how new bidding is to be handled. IE, must we use cash, another loan, or wait till another open auction...

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

MARKET CLOSED

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
NYW, is there a specific tile(s) you are are interested in or just land in particular as I see no way the player can buy all of the land in the next 3 turns. As for accumulation of $ you are in a position to make more money than anyone else but me with the ability to buy goods at D/S and then sell at a 50% bonus so I think you should easily be able to buy land next turn which is the first turn it would be possible.

We still need a new Banker as my actions as Banker caused Frances and Epistax to quit and have almost caused notyoueither and UnOrthOdOx to quit.

Never considered quitting GF. You're doing a bang up job of keeping this going, but we might not agree about everything.

Could you clarify 1 thing for me? Will people who are out of debt be able to borrow more for new land?

More later. I'm at work right now...