In case Rome demands our WM

[notyoueither]

You do not want to have a war with Rome while fighting the Persians AND rushing to settle new lands. No, no, no.

Give them what they want. It is only temporary. The costs of war with Rome (if they have 15 or 20 Legions in the field) are much, much, MUCH higher.

The willow bends with the wind and survives the storm.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Shiber
We don't need the Roman Ivory. It will be a complete waste!
adaMada, you're making a mistake. The best ivory for dyes and gold trade is ivory for our dyes, 5gpt and 8g (total 108g). We're in wartime for banana's sake, we can't part with so much money for something which will be of so little use to us!

I agree, do not give cash for a luxury right now. Most of our main cities will be depopulating for settlers, will they not?

Sell Dyes to Rome for whatever we can get. Even give them to them for 20 turns. That may improve their attitude toward us and make them look elsewhere.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by notyoueither
You do not want to have a war with Rome while fighting the Persians AND rushing to settle new lands. No, no, no.

Give them what they want. It is only temporary. The costs of war with Rome (if they have 15 or 20 Legions in the field) are much, much, MUCH higher.

The willow bends with the wind and survives the storm.

Agreed.
I repeat my previous suggestion: if Rome demands our WM or TM we should comply and then pause the game so we can whore the maps to everyone else (before Rome does).

[nz_upy]

With the French Galley so close giving them our WM will almost certainly produce trouble on Uber Isle not counting the aztecs with their Lighthouse.

[Shiber]

We don't have any choice. If the Romans get our WM or TM they will probably sell it around and within 5 or 6 turns all the major players will have it anyway. We might as well whore it ourselves and gain the extra ~150 gold from the trades.

[wervdon]

Ive thought about this a few days now, and i think Shiber has it right. Capitulate if they demand, then immediately sell it to everyone else to keep them from doing it.


-----

Honestly though until someone hits astronomy I dont think we'll have to worry about them trying to cross 4 tiles of sea except for the aztecs. Which if we saw the aztecs coming, it might be worth it to sink their galley then sign an alliance with germany against them to create a buffer

[adaMada]

Right now, here are the current plans:

We will try to appease Rome before they deamnd anything of us. Should they demand something besides our WM/TM, we'll give it to them. If not, then we'll have to hope that our previous efforts will prevent them from declaring war. I understand that this is a controversial issue, and I wish there were some clear cut majority on this, but many well-spoken and important citizens have taken the issue on both sides.

My primary Reason for supporting the Ivory trade was Aggie's approval. I understand that we don't want to be spending a lot of money on this, but Aggie did come out and say that he thought the benefits to 'Poly were worth it, and he's the primary person who'll be loosing money (the war effort, which he is directing). Also, the Foreign Ministry will be basically footing the bill (plus a bit) through our other trades, assuming that both E_T and Shiber calculated their numbers right.

I'm afriad that someone just has to decide on the first Issue, and it's a shame that Togas isn't back to make the decision, as the people's elected representative. I've thought about it, and I think the best thing we can do is engage Rome in a generous deal, and then gamble that they do not demand our Maps, and if they do, hope that they don't declare war because of it.

On the second idea, I'm much more open. Time is running out, and if I don't change my orders soon enough then they'll stand, but if I can be convinced that the Ivory trade is worse than giving Dyes away to them, then I'd PM MWIA and also change my orders to ensure that they are changed.

I'm sorry I have to make this call. Really, I am . I'd much rather that Togas were here to decide, or that I were elected and (as such) had some standing on the issue. All the same, I've got to decide one way or the other, and the decision will be highly unpopular either way. I think this is the best compromise -- do our best to appease Rome, but stand on our policy to not trade World Maps. I hope everyone understands.

-- adaMada

[wervdon]

In that case, if they do demand it and they do declare war, I think we should be ready to sign alliances with every other northern (not southern!) power (meaning specifically greece, germany, actecs, england) that we are not at war with against them.

Why?
1) It means any legions they send will be just as likely to go greeces way.
2) It forces them to waste time fighting northern powers instead of southern ones, thus hurting their long term expansion. Assuming they lose :P

How could it backfire?
1) The other northern nations sign alliances with babylon or russia resulting in them getting absorbed

[adaMada]

If they do declare war, then the President will stop the chat, and we'll have to make plans... hopefully, we won't have to deal with that situation, though .

If we did, then I'd probably be inclined to agree with you, since they have enough forces to cause us serious damage.

-- adaMada

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Ninot
lol, ok, thanks for answering
are you representative of Hawk thoughts and beliefs?

Not entirely. Duddha is probably the most extreme within the Hawks. We do not oppose EVER giving into a demand, but it should be the exception, not the rule.

And MrWIA, be careful. There are a few Hawks left around besides Duddha...

I do not know if shutting down the game is the right thing to do over this, however.

Demands happen. We cannot stop and save the gameat that point, we must either leave the game running and do nothing, or come up with a pre-defined plan.

Basically we have two options:

1. Give in to the demand, then attempt to sell the map at the next available time just in case Rome did not.

2. Laugh in the face of Ceasar and incite a war.

Personally, I do not fear Rome at this point. The mighty legions are a fading force in the land. Their glory days are in their twilight, and they would be forcd to march across the map to deal with us. We even have the option of pulling Russia or the Iriquois into the battle to divert their attention. The only threat would be Rome's abilty to purchase other's services. Of those, only Greece would pose any true threat. I wouldn't mind a more focused assault towards Berlin if Otto should be foolish enough to join again. Germany is still a scientific powerhouse, and we must move to stop that soon lest we be left behind. And are we planning a golden age sometime this era or what? Golden age, bonus production gets us Sun Tzu's. That gives us better military AND more gold...

[adaMada]

UnOrthO,

Do you agree with what we've decided now? Give Rome something they want (and get Ivory out of the deal), and hopefully not need to go to war, but still reject their demand should they make it?

-- adaMada

[Nimitz]

I think its good compromise hopely it won't be tested though.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by adaMada
UnOrthO,

Do you agree with what we've decided now? Give Rome something they want (and get Ivory out of the deal), and hopefully not need to go to war, but still reject their demand should they make it?

-- adaMada

I all honesty, I haven't read through the whole thing here. I am still a bit behind after my absense. I trust that anything decided is for the best of Apolytonia, though, despite how I would PERSONALLY deal with the situation.

[adaMada]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


I all honesty, I haven't read through the whole thing here. I am still a bit behind after my absense. I trust that anything decided is for the best of Apolytonia, though, despite how I would PERSONALLY deal with the situation.

Ah, dosen't really matter anymore -- it all went through, and it all turned out pretty well (as long as Rome doesn't turn around and declare war next turn ). Thanks anyway, though .

-- adaMada