In case Rome demands our WM

[astrologix]

AFAIK, when the AI demands anything, one can't propose another deal, one must say YES or NOT. If we say NOT to the Romans, they'll declare war. We couldn't support a war against the romans while we are involved in the Persian campaign.

If the Romans demand our WM, we should give it them.
Even if they or another civ erect cities in UberIsle, we have a great advantage over them : Apolyton is closer and we'll have much less corruption than they. Thus, we'll be able to fight more efficiently than they to take those hypothetical foreign cities in the future.

[Shiber]

Quick analysis:

- The Romans may or may not demand our WM or TM during the next five turns.
- If we refuse to meet their demands, they WILL declare war on us.
- We do not want to go to war with Rome. It is not a good time.
- We will have no choice but to give the Romans the maps they'll demand.
- If we give Rome the maps and then continue playing, we'll allow Rome enough time to whore our maps, thus missing the opportunity to whore the maps of Uber Isle ourselves and gain ~150 gold.
- Conclusion: in case Rome demands our WM or TM, give in and then pause the game so we can discuss the best way to whore our maps to everyone else so we can at least make money out of this mess.

Workaround:

- If we trade luxuries with the Romans (either by trading dyes to them as I proposed in my trade thread or by buying their ivory for our dyes, ~40 gold and some gpt as other people suggested) we'll be binded with a 20 turns trade treaty with Rome (note that both deals will most likely have the same effect so it's a choice between the two)
- AI civs are less likely to declare war on you when you have a trade agreement with them because:
A. They become dependant on your luxuries or on your gpt.
B. If they declare war they'll be breaking a treaty and ruin their reputation, and they don't want to do that lest noone else will agree to trade with them in fair conditions.
- Conclusion: if we sign either one of the two proposed trade treaties with Rome we might be able to work around this problem, as Rome will not present demands for our maps (or anything else for that matter) in fear that we might refuse (in which case Rome will have to declare war, which it would rather avoid now because otherwise they'll be breaking a trade treaty).

Your thoughts?

[Torkkeli]

I say trade or give the Lux if it avoids the possibility of getting into war with them now. As giving in the map is not an option.
I want us to colonize Uber Island first and then sell the maps.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Torkkeli, full agreement.

Shiber - looks like your trade ideas may end up crucial. It's good to see that the best laid pland of men do not necessarily go awry.

[Shiber]

Thanks MWIA.

[Donal Graeme]

I have to agree with Shiber, now is the time to sell Dyes to the Romans, in order for them to be less likely to attack us. We know that Roman Units are heading our way, but not if they are going to attack us soon. I think that they may be going to attack the Greeks myself, as the Greeks are tied up attacking the Atztecs, and are actually weaker than we are. My suscpicion is that the Romans recognize that the Greeks were only a great power because of their Hoplites, and plan on taking Alex out of the fight now, before his commercial and scientific bonuses count. However, Caesar may yet attack us. The key will be if Roman units appear next to our cities in large numbers. Once they do that, they are going to declare war no matter what. However, I expect them to demand tribute before they get there, and attack then. Best to buy them off with dyes, and get them to attack the Greeks instead.

[GePap]

I agree that Shiber's plan of using trade to contain rome is best until we get a good leg up on colonizing the Isle before we trade our world map for big Lytons. (whats the slang for Lyton?)

THe dangers of a war with Rome have much to do with how far we will carry the war in Persia. Right now, if our plans take us no further than Arbela, then we could afford a war with Rome (recognizing the loss of Cherbourg as likely) within the next 10 turns- making the big assumption they would not be able to create some sort of coolition against us. If we decide to Push for the Pyramids, then we will be engaged in persia much longe, and make the likelyhood of a coolition v. us greater, making a war with Rome a great danger.

[Aggie]

My gut instinct is that Rome is looking for a fight somewhere and with someone, my suspicion is that the forces we have seen are heading to a planned war. Question is it us or the greek or perhap rome just wants to do so vulturing of weakened cives(america anyone). I can't tell but suspect it is Greece they seek. But we should make a friendly deal just in case and keep on there friendly side. They truly have the scariest unit out there now. Yes immortals are bad, but if you hit them first they are no different then spearman. On the other those legions are 3/3 and hard to kill so I say lets avoid war with rome at ALL cost. Then that makes it more likely they will fight greece and who knows we could do some vulturing of our own. It would almost be worth the rop just to watch the fireworks as legions take on hoplites, almost but not quite Another thing to think about, if we were their main target they would have said hello at cherbough.
Aggie

[adaMada]

I'm all for Shiber's 'workaround' (nice analysis Shiber).

If we take that, however, we'll have to stick to our guns, and if they demand a map from us we'll have to reject. They hopefully won't declare war because of the deal, but we'd have to reject in those circumstances.

Does anyone have any objections to that idea? Also, please post if you favor the Ivory plan or Shiber's original. I'm going to try to get my orders out tonight (for real this time ), and I'd like to get one last quick feel for what people think before I write them and they go final.

-- adaMada

[Aggie]

I would like the ivory plan. Yes its more expensive but we could really get production going in apoly.
Aggie

[History Guy]

Considering the situation, I have somewhat reluctantly decided that Shiber's plan is the best course of action to take, though I do not envy the foreign minister who would have to effect this.

I also feel too that Aggie is right. This man, Gaius Julius Caesar, is an imperialist, not unlike myself, but unlike myself, he is also a warmonger. The man wants to destroy everything before him, and make Rome the world, through bloodshed. He is, I think, itching for a fight, and I think that if we were to turn down his offers, he would declare war. In fact, I believe that he would want us to turn down his offer, simply so that he can have the chance to use his legions, and destroy our empire, building up his own.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Aggie
I would like the ivory plan. Yes its more expensive but we could really get production going in apoly.
Aggie

Agree that ties that Ivory to us for 20 turns and we would get first right to it when the trade expires.

[Robber Baron]

I'll join the chorus supporting Shiber's plan. Lock the Romans into a luxury trade. Keep our map to ourselves. I still say I'd go to war to keep it, until we get a chance to plant at least another two cities on Uber Island (and fund a major culture rush, to try to flip any other cities on the island.
By the way, this plan suggests we should plan southern cities first, on Uber Island, forcing interlopers to plant between our cities. That way our culture would encircle them -- and they'd be forced to plant closer to our capital.

[adaMada]

Ok... everyone take a look at the first draft of my orders (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...20#post1291520) and let me know about any obvious omissions, comments, or disagreements.

-- adaMada

[Shiber]

We don't need the Roman Ivory. It will be a complete waste!
adaMada, you're making a mistake. The best ivory for dyes and gold trade is ivory for our dyes, 5gpt and 8g (total 108g). We're in wartime for banana's sake, we can't part with so much money for something which will be of so little use to us!