Turn Chat was a Joke.

[Togas]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Togas,

Mistakes happened, that is clear. Help us to move forward.

This wasn't a "mistake" this was disregarding posted orders.

All we need to do to move forward is follow the posted orders during turnchat. It's not very difficult. It wasn't organization that caused the orders to ignored.

--Togas

[DAVOUT]

We have a problem.

Togas is right, it is a matter of principle. Untill it will be made clear that it was either a mistake or a deliberate disregarding of Ministers orders, our democracy will be weakened. The problem exceeds largely the persons involved. I suggest not to go to the court for a trial, but to ask the court to issue a Reminder of Constitutionnal Laws applicable under the circumstances.

[Togas]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
I suggest not to go to the court for a trial, but to ask the court to issue a Reminder of Constitutionnal Laws applicable under the circumstances.

I'll go ahead and try to do something of the sort right now. But we must be patient with The Court. These things take time. Until then, I think it's imperative that we have a promise from the President (or VP should he do a turnchat) that the written orders will be followed, if at all possible.

--Togas

[Aggie]

Unorthodox, I myself am unsure what exactly my status is. If I had thought I was going to stand in I would have been better prepared and would have discussed things with togas in a different context and we could have come to agreement. Also I could have PM Uber to get his views on the new deals. But since there had no public word from uber on the new options and debate and he wasn't there, the logical person to take over was me. Since he hadn't posted since the new proposals and ideas had come out, I had no idea of his feelings on the issues, though I did move the troops toward Rheims(just in case peace wasn't declared), as the orders were issued and would have followed the general directions elsewhere. You also will notice that I several times asked"will we make peace, since it effects orders". I did not "disregard the will of the FM", that was not in my power, yes i urged peace but the decison was made almost by general concensus. If I overstepped my bounds I apolagize, but I did what I thought was right then. This is my last statement on this issue.
Definitely I would like clarification of mine and all deputies power and limits(Like I said I'm not sure if I am a deputy, or temp replacement for Uber when he was away that week and then it ended.). Generally it would be nice,as has been stated elsewhere, if all orders were in one file. Would make life easier for Prez, or as I've said each person could do their part and send it. I don't see why the prez has to change worker to tile A instead of tile B or have worker build road. Let that minister do it and leave the prez for the less tedious stuff. Also this way if orders aren't carried out the minster has nobody to blame but himself.
Aggie

[DAVOUT]

Reasonnableness must prevail. Why a joint request to The Court would not be issued by the President and the Foreign Minister? In this document the President could confirm his understanding that he must apply Ministers orders, if at all possible.

[Apocalypse]

Anyone have a problem with how I give my orders? Mine really aren't turn based ones. I just list the techs in order we should research.

[WhiteBandit]

Eh

Sure, we can be unhappy if the President doesn't follow our orders, but I do object to all this uproar. I think the virtue of being the President allows you some leeway. If the President has no other purpose then to move the game based on what we say, then what is the point? We might as well just play the game ourselves, or manage our own sections of the saved game and upload it to the next person (not entirely reasonable, I know). We might as well call our President a pawn, since at this moment, his only intent is to just play out what we tell him to. Where is the prestige of being President then? I don't support the President throwing out all our decisions and carrying on with the game himself, but he is the President, and since he ultimately controls the saved game, he should be able to override a minister's orders. (I should probably check the CoL regarding this issue actually)

By voting for a President, I personally am voting for someone whom I think has the intelligence and knowledge to lead our civilization. He can make decisions, and in cases when the decision *isn't* clear, he can use his own prerogative. It isn't like we trudged on blindly with an absurd disregard for orders. We thought about what to do, as well as our overall objectives: Peace with France. Granted it wasn't specifically carried out according to plan, but I still think what we acheived was highly satisfactory in our confused state.

Also, knowing how confusing turn chats can be, it would be wise to have either yourself there, or a deputy to fill in for you making sure that your plans are carried out in case confusion of this sort does happen.

How come orders were disregarded? Who knows, the chat was a mess. But Togas orders were also in contention (some wanted peace now, others did not. Should we take Rheims or not). Of course as a minister, he has a right to make his own orders, but MWIA did say in a thread he may have to decide how it is played out.

[adaMada]

Going off topic back to what UnOrthO was talking about again (sorry, maybe this should be split into two threads -- one about arguing over what happened, and one about how to prevent it from happening again).

UnOrthO on the HTML Tables: A little web-based (and downloadable) program that'll make them for you can be found at http://www.bagism.com/tablemaker/ . It seems to work well enough if you don't use any of the *d options (I didn't test those) and put the whole thing in [code] brackets. At least it did with Mozilla and Internet Explorer on my notepad, anyway.

Furthermore, from the output there, you can probably figure out how to make them manually if you want to... if you do want to learn how to do it without that, then I can send you a list of all the tags that program uses and what they mean -- just either post or PM and ask.

Hope this helps!

-- adaMada

[MrWhereItsAt]

I had the idea of having Ministers number their orders, so when I let everyone know what I am doing (so you can all follow along), when moving Workers etc, all I need to do is type "PW 2" for Public Works Minister Order #2 instead of writing out the whole thing. This will speed unit movements and Worker orders, but isn't as applicable for Foreign Affairs or Science. There should be no problems, especially with a pre-turnthread that confirms all orders and checks for compatibility beforehand.

As far as the mess of the chat and not following orders goes, I personally would like to see less of all this - I am wholly responsible, being both President and the player of the game. Any more on this issue - PM me and I will talk as much as you like. Togas and I have been talking this way, and this has been helpful.

[DAVOUT]

Extremely satisfied to learn that a discouraged Minister and the President have been talking in private, and that such talks have been helpful, the people have resumed discussing foot-ball.

In the offices of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs some concerns have been expressed regarding the Ministers physical health.

[disorganizer]

No what about having a) a turnthread with instructions and b) enforcing some behaviour rules in the chat?

for example, the player playing out the turn will ASK people and GIVE ALLOWANCE to the to speak. he may even trigger open discussion, but if he asks to stop all stop it.

to the problem of the pres or vice being late:
why dont you implement a kind of "chain of command"?

we have a coc stating who will be the designated player for a chat, starting with the president, then the vice-president, running though ministers, their deputies etc.
if the designated player (president) is not there till i believe 5-10 minutes after the proclaimed start-time, the next highest person in the coc will be designated player for this chat. so if the president and the vice-president are not there for example, but the domestic leader is, he will take over. if the president comes in after the chat was taken over, the chat remains up to the designated player.

[Will 5001]

It really was a joke, in my opinion, it was too late, should be at the old time of 2100GMT, which is acceptable to most people.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Acceptable to most, but not in general to the one who has to play the game.

[disorganizer]

Well, if you use a chain of command approach, he president need not be the one to play all the time. He could do it in turn with his vice. The chats would then be on 21:00 gmt and at a later time, depending on who plays...

Example:
Lets say the pres can go to 2:00gmt and the vice to 21:00gmt.
And lets say you have chats on wednesday and saturday.
In one week, the schedule would be:
wed:21:00gmt
sat:02:00gmt
In the next, it could be:
wed:02:00gmt
sat:21:00gmt

the european and the american players will be at their mostly preferred time in change ;-)

[BigFurryMonster]

Good idea, Disorganizer!!