Announcement

**Franses** · August 27, 2002, 19:45

This post provides more information regarding the proposed solutions. For detailed discussion see the "main thread and directory" and "how to balance supply and demand".

Trade proposals
Solution 1:
I refer to my earlier post in this thread regarding this issue. The solution is generalized and is:

The nobles specify the amount of the commodity they want to sell/buy and their minimum/maximum price. The price they receive will be equal to the calculated D:S unless D:S is lower/higher than the minimum price in which case the commodity is not sold/bought.

example:
Market Assesment 4:4=$100
OneGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $70
SecondGuy offers two commerce and sets a minimum price of $0
ThirdGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $40

The turn is closed. Final D:S=4:8=$50
OneGuy does not sell his commerce at this price so he is taken out of the equation. New final D:S=4:7=$57
SecondGuy and Thirdguy now sell their commerce at $57.

Advantages:
1. Solves the problem of unacceptable price influencing as described by Epistax
2. Nobles only need to specify their deals once
3. System is fair to people that do not have the time to visit the forum at the end of the turn
4. The banker has a lot less work
5. D:S has to be calculated at the end of the turn only
6. Turn may close before the pre-specified time (as soon as all nobles have posted).

Buildings
Solution 1:
IMO, the main reason for the rejection of the proposed buildings was the cost. The payback time was just too high (see also my post in this thread and Epistax/UnOrthOdOx analysis in above posts. I suggest the following buildings (most of them equal to the original proposal of GhengisFarb):

STOREHOUSE (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food).

TAVERN (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 food per turn at a 50% bonus.

SHOPPE (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 commerce per turn at a 50% bonus.

SMITHY (Costs 4 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 shields per turn at a 50% bonus.

BAKERY (Cost 10 shields/labor) converts upto 2 food into 2 bread (1 food into 1 bread).
The default price of bread is $100.
Bread can not be stored.
Demand of bread is equal to the population of the city the bakery is build in.
Supply of bread is equal to the population of the city the bakery is build in.
Market assessment D:S = 100% = $100
The city a bakery is build in must be specified

BANK (Cost 10 shields/labor) converts upto 2 commerce into 2 loans (1 commerce into 1 loan).
A loan can not be stored.
Demand of a loan is equal to the population of the city the bank is build in.
Supply of a loan is equal to the population of the city the bank is build in.
Market assessment D:S = 100% = $100
The city a bank is build in must be specified.

Demand/Supply
Solution 1:
I propose to keep the current Demand/Supply system.
The existing problems can be solved by enabling the nobles to influence the supply chain. This is realized by defining buildings that convert food and commerce into other commodities. Many of the other proposals will fail if more land is auctioned to new players adding more supply to the process.
Short term problems will remain, so I suggest to provide one storehouse (see below) for free to all nobles. With it they can
anticipate on what will happen if the conversion buildings come on-line.

Solution 2:
PRODUCTION IS TO BE DIVIDED INTO SUB PRODUCTS
All subProducts compete against one another in the same Market, that is Bananas, Grain, and Venison all affect the Food

Market Demand:Supply line.
The only difference between them is the bonus to the final sale price.

SubProduct(Market)
FOOD MARKET
Bananas(Food) - food produced from Jungle tiles(receives a 10% bonus to final sell price)
Grain(Food) - food produced from Grassland/Plains tiles
Venison(Food) - food produced from Forest tiles (receives a 25% bonus to final sell price)

SHIELD MARKET
Timber(Shield) - shields produced from Forest tiles
Bricks(Shield) - shields produced from Grassland/Plains tiles
Stone(Shield) - shields produced from Mountain/Hills tiles
*Bonus on these products varies based on what was built in the previous session of Democracy Gameplay.

COMMERCE MARKET
Commerce - All base commerce is generic, will introduce business that will convert it to refined commerce.

DEMAND AND SUPPLY LINES - BASE NUMBERS
The current system will not work as more members become involved and the game progresses. Basically our system isn't based on supply and demand, the demand number for food is correct, but the supply isn't and the sources for the other commodities aren't correct demand OR supply numbers (except Labor).

FOOD MARKET SYSTEM
I propose that the Food DEMAND source stay the same (2xPop). The Food SUPPLY base number be changed to represent the food generated from the city tiles, which I believe will be 2 for each city.

Secondly, there will be more food supplied than demanded. Therefore we could say that the government buys all excess food
(food not sold, and that which did not meet contract conditions) at 50% of the closing price. It basically purchases the excess at a bulk discount and distributes it to the military ranks.

SHIELD MARKET SYSTEM
I will work out the exact specifics later and am open to suggestions, but as of right now the only examples I can think of are:
Timber gets a 10% bonus to final sale price for every wooden ship built or upgraded to during previous session of turn plays.

Brick and Stone get a 10% bonus for every temple/aqueduct built during previous session of turn plays.

This should represent the rise in price following a sudden demand for the product.

Have no idea where the Demand number should come from. The SUPPLY number should be the production from the city tile (1 shield per city I believe) and whatever the nobles sell.

COMMERCE MARKET SYSTEM
The DEMAND number is the Markets Pop (heads in cities) multiplied times our current Annual Income (Currently $3 per capita).

The SUPPLY number is the production of the city tiles and whatever the players sell.

LABOR MARKET SYSTEM
Stays the same with the following twist:
Each noble has one labor, representing your servants, vassals, slaves whatever you want to think of them as. Remember, we're just entering the Middle Ages that's how society worked. The city squares are independent municipalities of freemen. They have labor you can hire to build projects faster (you have one free labor per turn from your servants) or to build in their city. Each labor market is specific to the city. You have to hire labor to build/operate your business from the city your building/operating in.

Support for Labor
You have to feed your private labor or they will starve. Each labor you own eats 1/2 of a food per turn. If you only have 1 labor then the effect is ignored and we simply assume they subsisted on scraps from your table and squirrels off your lands.

YOU CAN OBTAIN ADDITIONAL LABOR, and thus build up your Labor supply. Where do they come from? Every time our forces capture an enemy settler/worker we will put up a new labor for sale in the next trading session. That's where the Romans got their workers, that's how the Normans treated the Saxons, it's historic. When we leave the Middle Ages we'll do something to emancipate the vassals and go to an alternate form of paying them, but by then we'll be making a heck of lot more money.

Solution 3
Here are the D:S calculations if we make the nobles' estates (attached picture) not to be part of the basic supply :

Apolyton produces 6 food, 5 shields and 3 commerce from nobles' estates (Franses, civman2000, Kloreep)
Termina produces 2 food, 1 shield, and 1 commerce from nobles' estates (Rendelnep)
Tassagrad has a wholly independent production
BHQ produces 4 food, 2 shields and 4 commerce from nobles' estates (Captain and Kramerman)

Then, basic supply is :
Apolyton : 4 food, 2 shields, 5 commerce
Termina : 4 food, 2 shields, 2 commerce
Tassagrad : 8 food, 4 shields, 4 commerce
BHQ : 6 food, 3 shields, 5 commerce

Total basic supply : 22 food, 13 shields, 16 commerce

These figures didn't take corruption / waste into account. They were calculated from the raw production of lands.

Now, if we consider corruption / waste ADDS to demand rather than substracting from it, the base demand is :
Apolyton : 10 food, 8 commerce, 7 shields
Termina : 6 food, 3 shields, 3 commerce
Tassagrad : 8 food, 4 shields, 4 commerce
BHQ : 10 food, 5+1 shields, 9+2commerce.

Total demand : 34 food, 21 shields, 25 commerce

Comment: If all lands are sold, the basic supply will always default to the supply of the city tile (which by the way equals solution 2). In fact, if a few more players would have taken part, this would have been the case from the start of the game. So why not start with basic supply = city tile production from the beginning and avoid adding extra calculations that are needed for the first couple of turns only?

As a reaction to the comment it was agreed to use the city tile approach first, simply because this equals solution 2 and is the final (if not start) result of this model. If there appear to be unbalances that can be repared by this model, we switch.

**Franses** · August 27, 2002, 19:47

Demand/Supply
Solution 1: my favourite
Solution 2: Abstain but I would like to introduce the idea of "servants". IMO this can be introduced independent of the solution preferred by the nobles.
Solution 3: ok with me

Buildings
Solution 1: Implement it

Trade proposals
Solution 1: Implement it

**Epistax** · August 27, 2002, 19:57

I am confused about the style of the answer.

Demand/Supply:
1) Yes, to see if things even out.
2) Wait on this.
3) Same (no prob)

Buildings:
1) Yes

Trade proposals:
1) yes

uhg these ballots are confusing!

**GhengisFarb™** · August 27, 2002, 20:19

SUGGEST YOU MAKE EACH PROPOSAL A DIFFERENT COLOR SO ITS EASIER TO TELL WHICH ONE'S WHICH.

Demand/Supply
Solution 1: Think it addresses some problems but won't completely fix them.

Solution 2: My favorite (go figure) as it not only addresses current problems but future ones as well. This system should work for the rest of the game.

Like the idea of every noble having a free labor and being able to acquire more as our armies capture enemy civilians.

Solution 3: Same economic engine as 2, without the bells and whistles.

Buildings
Solution 2: Allows players to create finished goods to sell at a higher price, also allows players to eventually build a multi-tier production system and "chains" of business. Under this system you could play the game without owning land, you could simply own a chain of Taverns.

Trade proposals
Solution 1: Would be good at the end of the Industrial Age, right now I think the rule that any transaction must be VALID WHEN ITS OFFERED is more in keeping with the flavor of the game. It allows for controlled manipulation and thats how our markets should be as we're hardly into the Middle Ages. The sell below $40 or sell No less than $30 is fine as long as they actually have to think about where they want their price to be.

**Franses** · August 28, 2002, 09:00

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
SUGGEST YOU MAKE EACH PROPOSAL A DIFFERENT COLOR SO ITS EASIER TO TELL WHICH ONE'S WHICH.

Done! Hope this helps.

**Kuciwalker** · August 28, 2002, 09:26

How can we make these the rules? I really like buildings solution #1.

**Epistax** · August 28, 2002, 09:57

sky, you don't play.

only land/store owners may vote

*gets hit by over a hundred years of oppression in the US*

owe

**Kuciwalker** · August 28, 2002, 10:29

Actually, I DO own land. I just bought some.

**GhengisFarb™** · August 28, 2002, 10:39

Originally posted by Franses

Done! Hope this helps.

No, make the WHOLE option a different color.

Why is Solution 1 three different colors?

Originally posted by Epistax
sky, you don't play.

only land/store owners may vote

*gets hit by over a hundred years of oppression in the US*

Yeah, you filthy peasants.

It's good to be the Noble.

**Franses** · August 28, 2002, 10:40

And even if he did not: I also invited non-players.

That is why I did not use a regular poll.

Reason:
In one of the latest polls we noticed that 37 people voted. Much more than there are players. By not using a regular poll but this thread instead we can discriminate between actual players and non-players. We may decide later regarding what influence the non-players have on the actual decisions but this way we at least get the opinion of all those interested in this game.

**Franses** · August 28, 2002, 10:46

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

No, make the WHOLE option a different color.

Why is Solution 1 three different colors?

Ah, I see your point now. Sorry. The idea was to number all solutions for each issue at hand. There are three solutions provided for the Demand/Supply issue, so one has to be selected. There is only 1 solution provided for Buildings and 1 solution for Trade Proposals. This means that for these issues the poll in fact is a Yes/No poll.

**GhengisFarb™** · August 28, 2002, 10:52

1) How come my building system wasn't listed?

2) Nobody wants to play with my Bananas.

(

That sounds bad................)

**Kuciwalker** · August 28, 2002, 11:07

A question about the loans - does the 15 turns free thing mean 15 trading sessions?

**GhengisFarb™** · August 28, 2002, 11:51

Originally posted by skywalker
A question about the loans - does the 15 turns free thing mean 15 trading sessions?

Yep, but if you miss one, it still counts against the loan time.

EDIT:Withdrawn

Attached Files

Announcement

Poll: $mini-game How do you feel about the solutions?

Poll: $mini-game How do you feel about the solutions?

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