DIA : the medieval era

[Treestumpx]

I am not a DIA member but I would like to answer your concern, Sir Ralph.

This is a valid point. At some time in the near future we are going to need to look heavily into the construction and placing of a Forbidden Palace (FP). Having a Great Leader (GL) on hand to drive our hearty workers to new heights in its construction would be a marvelous benefit.

However,

We need to be mindful of the COST of obtaining that GL and his/her impact on building the FP. If we follow a plan that sees our nation invest HEAVILY into the training and deployment of offensive units to attack another nation, we will, in effect, cripple our economy. The risk involved in entering into war with another nation in order to develope and produce a GL is inmeasurably costly when scaled against our need to remain competitive economically.

Again, I am not saying that we need to, or should, cuts costs to the military in a heavy handed way. We need to look strategically at our weakest area and fix that before it becomes our Achilles Heal; and something from which we can not recover.

A question for you, and please forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, but what are your military plans:

1) Conquer another nation, or
2) Generate a GL

and at what point would you suggest that a military plan to generate a GL or conquer another nation be discarded at too expensive?

[Harovan]

Treestump,

1st: I am not a DIA member too. Fortunately.

2nd: Where is your constructive answer to my question? If you step in this discussion and don't agree with me, it's fine, but where is your solution of the FP problem?

3rd: I have stated my military plans to death and won't repeat them in this thread. Please read them here. Short answer: Yes to both. Conquer a location for an FP and generate 1-2 leaders.

4th: There is nothing, I repeat: nothing what pushes an economy so good like a well placed and timed FP. We can try to build up Spiffors "Butter" cities with an immense effort and will fail, because they are at least half corrupt. Or we could place a good FP and make them instantly productive. A "Builder" should know this.

Again: Constructive replies please. I repeat the question: When, where and how would you prefer to build our Forbidden Palace?

[Treestumpx]

OK. I am not necessarily for or against either proposal or philosophy. I do agree with your points Sir Ralph and you are beginning to sway me to your side but let us break this down into it's elements.

1) We need to identify our weak area and fix it. IMHO this means we need to seriously consider our infrastructure and the productivity of our cities. This means we need a FP to reduce corruption but we also need to focus on road, mines, city improvements and the jungle encroachment. At what point (100,000 lytons, 1000 lytons) should we decide which is the best way?

2) We need to maintain and expand our military in order to, at the very least, deter the other nations from attacking us. We need to give them a moments pause. This leads us to military procurement and IMHO we need to solidify our city defenses but I agree that we need to think offensively as well - no leadership has ever been established without the test of combat.

We need to achieve a balance with these two high level strategic objectives while maximizing our growth against the other nations.

I'm probably taking a good middle ground here and, as you said, I am not offering much in the way of a solution myself.

What I would propose is that we reach a middle ground.

Building 20 War Chariots and upgrading them to knights at the cost of 100 lytons a piece gives us a price tag of 400 shields and $2000 lytons; assuming 50 lytons a turn we are looking at a long production cycle to get these units up to operational levels. Is it possible for us to work with 8-10 Chariots (cost of 160-200 shields and $800-$1000 lytons)? It cuts our costs in half (yes it cuts our offensive capabilities in half) but IMHO we can not afford to upgrade in order to achieve our objectives...

Ahh.. that's the rub is it not? In order to use the Chariots effectively, do they need to be upgraded to knights. That is the option that sways it for me - building the units knowing that we need to spend $2000 lytons in order to make them effective while that money needs to be spent elsewhere.

Again I have skirted offering a solution other than suggesting that we meet half-way.

[Harovan]

Treestump,

I don't think this discussion belongs here. Please continue it in the War Academy thread.

Short answers (I'm in a hurry):

- I'm not talking about a short-term strategy, but about the next 50-100 turns. We need to push up our economy with workers, but concentrate on our productive cities. Cleaning jungle around Seeberg gives nothing for now. Improving our heartland brings.

- Build up the economy in our productive cities (marketplaces). At this point, the cities should have grown and been improved to a net of, say, 5-7 shields, that's reasonable. That yields a Chariot every 3-4 turns. Take the 4 most productive cities, out Chariot army will be ready in about 15-20 turns.

- One by one upgrade the Chariots in a way we can afford. Continue to build up marketplaces and cathedrals, to support more citizens. That brings more commerce.

- I we have enough veteran Knights, consider to attack a worthy target. Greece is, they have a luxury for us.

I'm going out and won't be back for a while. Hope to continue this discussion in a place that fits it better.

[Sheik]

Where, when, and how to place the FP is a hard question. In the game I am playing right now I waited until I was oversees and then built it. After building it I had 100 more gold per turn. Sir Ralph you are right:

There is nothing, I repeat: nothing what pushes an economy so good like a well placed and timed FP.

The probelm is we may not want to wait until we reach Uber Isle because we have no idea how big Uber Isle is. Is the placement of the FP the city planners job? I know I haven't given a very constructive answer to this question because I am still thinking about it.

[Spiffor]

SirRalph :
About the FP matter : I think we should wait for now. To begin, we ust precisely know what expansion we want : do we want all Abananaba ? All Abananaba major ? The land we control + France, America and Greece ? The land we control + France, America and Germany ? Do we want to let the French alive ? etc. Those are important questions, and their answers will be vital to build a good FP.

For example, imagine an extremist builder (I don't range within them, I think an extreme building period is necessary in the medieval era) who says : "our land + America and Uber Isle is enough. No need to finish off France". This person is likely to build FP in Del Monte.
Now, imagine an extremist warmonger, who believes in a complete Manifest Destiny : he'd build FP in Rome or something.

Now, imagine Uber Isle is a big unsettled landmass : a FP there would be the obvious choice.

My answer was unconstructive, simply because I don't know the answer that would be good for all Apolytonians. IMO, the only necessary expansion after the 2nd French campaign would be an utter conquest of Germany, so I'd start to build the FP in Boston as soon as a temple is built there. But this is my opinion (again, what I say doesn't reflect the opinion of the DIA), and it's as valid as someone else's.

I'm tired, and I don't know how we could work well-asked polls, which tell what territory Apolytonians want, and when. If you have any ideas, please share them

[caesarqbear]

I don't agree that the FP is an immediate priority. We will obviously only have one chance to place it right, and I believe that our borders are too uncertain to determine where the FP should go. I believe it is Apolytonian destiny to reach the western shore, and that may be far away in time. Moving our capital may be a solution for now.

I agree that we will have to face some concessions and even capitualtions in our forgien policies. Our warriors are strong, but we cannot defend against all our neighboring cultures. We must choose allies, and the sooner the better. With good strong allies (not too strong though) we can weather our opposition's demands and strike another day.

We compete not only against neighbors on this crowded continent, but also against hidden powers in distant lands, who may grow unhindered by warfare. We must assume they have riches we do not. We cannot wait for exploration to tell us this.

Our task is great and we must use time as our weapon and not be caught in its trap.

[Reddawg]

it's defn. too early to decide where to place the FP; our borders are going to expand in far too unpredictable ways. we have to wait on that.

but something treestump said has made me decided to analyize the production and commerce of our cities; the Stats will be updated soon.

[civman2000]

I agree that it is too early. If Uber Isle is very large, we'll put it there. ALthough in may be enticing to make the FP asap, it might be wiser to wait to get in Abananaba Minor.

WE may even get a GL in the upcoming war against france, thoughit is doubtful.

However, this early, as others have said, we cannot decide where to build the FP

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
SirRalph :
About the FP matter : I think we should wait for now. To begin, we ust precisely know what expansion we want : do we want all Abananaba ? All Abananaba major ? The land we control + France, America and Greece ? The land we control + France, America and Germany ? Do we want to let the French alive ? etc. Those are important questions, and their answers will be vital to build a good FP.

Ah, may be you should think a bit about this then before you return with such proposals. It's about time. A well placed FP pushes our economy much more than all your cathedrals, libraries and universities together. Even more: It allows to build these improvements even in distant cities.

And stop with these weird names. What the heck as an Abanana?

[GodKing]

I would hesitate at this time to finalize the location of a fp. Currently I lean toward Del Montie, but that will be a while down the line, post conquest of the americans.

If necessary, a palace jump to uber isle might be a better solution to that problem. Again, too early to say.

The first gl we get should go toward an army. The second adn so forth should be held for wonders such as leo's or michaels that others can take from us.

Oh ya, sorry DIA people, as an independant, for voicing my opinion here.

[Spiffor]

GodKing : no problem, this place became a huge general policy forum for everyone
(But DIA members are welcome to express their views here. Remember, I don't talk on behalf on the DIA, but I talk for myself here)

SirRalph :
Abananaba is the name of our continent. IIRC, GoodFella came up with it, and nobody voiced strong opposition.
What I say about FP is that building it would be nice, as soon as we know what our definitive borders hould look like. If not, we might place it in a suboptimal location, at the long run.
(btw, my personal answer was hidden : if it was just me, I'd start to build a FP in Boston as soon as a Temple is built there : indeed, I think conquering Germany will be the only necessary expansion after our pending campaigns)

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Science :
I absolutely support Project Eiri (by Apocalypse) : since we won't be able to fight efficiently with knights, we should avoid war at all costs rather than building knights. Rushing for eductaion will allow us to build universities, which will be badly needed to counterbalance AI dominance in tech and culture.
After this, Democracy is the obvious choice, being an excellent government commerce- and corruption-wise. Also, banking is in the way to Democracy, and banks will let us have more money, hence more rushing ability.
So rushing to Democracy is what we must strive for in tech domain.

Protocol Eiri. It isn't a full project because it is just something to get combine the groups who want either a Democracy or Astronomy rush against those who want to continue Project Lain or the Gunpowder Rush Project.

Sorry, I'm not a DIA, but I just want to clarify something.

I thank you for bring the tech issue up in your thread.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
SirRalph :
Abananaba is the name of our continent. IIRC, GoodFella came up with it, and nobody voiced strong opposition.
What I say about FP is that building it would be nice, as soon as we know what our definitive borders hould look like. If not, we might place it in a suboptimal location, at the long run.
(btw, my personal answer was hidden : if it was just me, I'd start to build a FP in Boston as soon as a Temple is built there : indeed, I think conquering Germany will be the only necessary expansion after our pending campaigns)

I agree, that Germany has to be reduced, before they get their UU. But apart from this, what has Germany to give? They are piss poor. When I choose a target, I know exactly what I want. Greece has a luxury we don't have and gives an important sea port. And it would give a longish empire shape for a good placed FP. If Uber island is big, which we'll have to explore soon, Apolyton could remain the capital, even though its ill located at the tip of a peninsula.

[Shiber]

I disagree with one thing: Uber Isle is no reason to keep the palace in Apolytonia.
Even if it's big it most likely stretches away from Apolytonia. What more, the island is several tiles away from Apolytonia. I haven't bothered checking for the exact figure but I believe that the distance between Apolytonia and the nearest shore of Uber Island that we know of is something in the vicinity of 6, 7, maybe 8 tiles away. We should move our capital to an area that is covered with cities rather than to a shore that has some cities on one side and a distant island on the other.