DIA : the medieval era

[Spiffor]

Hello fellow DIA members !
Here is a thread about the way you picture the medieval era. The intend of the thread is to develop a platform, and to elaborate a long-range policy (unlike the academies that deal with precise and immediate matters).

Everyone is welcome in the debate. Also, since it's a common work of the DIA, ALL members of the party are more than welcome to say their views. The DIA is a Democratic party, so don't be shy, and express your views even if you think they're worthless : the opinion of a fellow party member is never worthless.

Questions this thread will handle :
- What is likely to happen during the medieval era ?
- What will our hardships be, and how will we resolve them ?
- What overall direction should we give to our policy for the era ? (or for a good part of the era ?)
This isn't an exhaustive list of questions, simply the 3 that go through my mind now.
Let's debate !

[Spiffor]

My opinions about this matter (I already wrote them elsewhere).

Disclaimer : what is written in this post is only my personal stance, not necessarily the stance of the DIA

I think "our" medieval era will start after the 2nd American campaign, when all our ancient warfare would have been carried out, and when we won't have to conquer our neighbours immediately.
We'll find ourselves with a big territory, but an underpopulated one, with an insufficient infrastructure to match our neighbours. Indeed, we'll suffer from corruption pretty badly, even under Republic, because of the size of the empire.
Worse, because of the jungle, only 3 cities will be good production centres : Apolyton, Termina and Tassagrad. Others will produce slowly, and will have worse difficulties to build units and buildings.

To make the picture worse, we're technologically backwards, and we won't always be able to catch up with money : currently nobody wants to sell us monotheism, even if we give all our treasury, plus all our 19 Lytons per turn. Techs aren't cheap anymore.
Our research potential, for now, is catastrophic : had we 100% tech rate, whole Apolytonia make hardly more bulbs than Berlin alone. We can't allow this to continue, if we don't want to be backwards by several techs (we don't know if someone already know theology or not).

Compared to Greeks and Germans, our production potential will be laughable. Thus, we have no way to be ready for a war against them, and should this war be declared, we are sure not to outproduce them during he war. We will eevntually be swarmed under their troops until we sign a humiliating peace agreement (and lose several cities).

To counteract foreign threats (German mostly), we must build an infrastructure allowing more cities to be productive, and allowing enough research to be up-to-date. This is not a politicial choice. This is as necessary as our first war against America.
And in the jungly country of Apolytonia, "building" is a massive undertaking : it means clearing the biggest jungle of the knon world. It means building cathedrals in every medium/big city, to make more people work. It means building marketplaces and libraries massively, to be on par with the AI science-wise and culture-wise.

The aim of such a building policy is to be ready for late medieval and early industrial : late medieval will allow us to build cavalries, which could take care of foreign threats. If we're ready for early industrial, we could use all our workers to work on railroads immediately : this will give us a huge advantage on the AI (which is pretty slow with railroads). Also, being ready for earl insudtrial will let us build factories and hospitals as soon as they're available.


Foreign relations :
As I said, we have no way to struggle efficiently against our most powerful neighbours for now. Because of that, we must avoid war at all costs until we're ready.
To avoid the AI to declare war, 2 things are needed : an efficient defense (we must have many pikemen defending our cities and our workers), and a great tolerance towards AI demands.
Yes, it means giving in. I know I'm isolated on this one, but I'm experienced with appeasement policies in Civ3, and they work very well, if conquering you won't be a piece of cake (if you're waaaay to easy to conquer, the AI will attack anyways). Most of the time, demands aren't expansive, and giving in is one of the best defense you could ask.

To quote Cleopatra : "Thanks for your gift. Don't make us ask next time" : we can prevent AI demands by giving them gifts. Lytons per turn work very well to improve relationship with an AI. I suggest we pay what is needed to have good relationship with other civs, at least until we're ready production- and tech-wise.


Government :
Of course, I favor getting to Republic as soon as the 2nd American campaign is over (and we have 3 luxuries, with a potential 4th buyable from Persia). Republic will allow us to make more money, from commerce bonus + corruption reduction (monarchists tend to forget corruption is much worse in monarchy than in Republic).
With this extra money, gifts to the AI and rush-building will be much easier. It will allow us to have science on our own as well.
The problem with Republic is unit upkeep costs. I think we should disband one archer each time a new pikeman comes out. Later (at least when we have musketmen), we should disband our swordsmen as well, not to let our military expenses slip too much. But we must allow our military budget to increase, since our overall budget will increase.


Science :
I absolutely support Project Eiri (by Apocalypse) : since we won't be able to fight efficiently with knights, we should avoid war at all costs rather than building knights. Rushing for eductaion will allow us to build universities, which will be badly needed to counterbalance AI dominance in tech and culture.
After this, Democracy is the obvious choice, being an excellent government commerce- and corruption-wise. Also, banking is in the way to Democracy, and banks will let us have more money, hence more rushing ability.
So rushing to Democracy is what we must strive for in tech domain.


City building :
after having settled Uber Isle, our cities should simply build everything available, except perhaps courthouses. Most important buildings are : a harbour somewhere (several aren't that useful), cathedrals, libraries and marketplaces. But granaries in our worker producing cities will be more than welcome as well.


Overview
In ancient times, we had to fight for our survival. In middle ages, we'll have to build for our survival. Our land will be large after the 2nd American campaign, yet only our 3 core cities are really productive. We can boast with our territory, but we're basically plaing a 3-city-challenge for now.
Like we've done everything for the sake of conquering during the ancient times, we must now do everything for the sake of building in middle ages, and follow a hard line of builder policies.

Otherwise, our country will be as soft as butter, in long term. I want it as hard as a rock.

[OPD]

I think you're underestimating Banana HQ. It too is a fine city and deserves to be one of the "core cities"

[civman2000]

After the 2nd american war, we need to slow down military and focus on wrokers. Every city should have at least one mined and roaded grassland tile. Every tile being worked should have a road, ultimately. This infrastructure will be the key to success.

[Harovan]

I didn't intend to post in this thread, as I am not a member of this party, but I must agree with civman2000. Workers are our strength, as we are industrious. And I would not say 1 tile per city is enough. Every tile worked on shall be fully improved, both roaded and mined/irrigated, as far as irrigation makes sense. This will result in making much more money and production than now.

[civman2000]

Well, yes, that is the ultimate goal. BUt first we should focus on one per city, and then go towards more and more.

In my games, I usually have a large worker force throughout the entire game to ensure that every single tile being worked is giving the most resources it can. However, it is too late for that, so we have to make sure every city has at least one at maximum, and all roaded.

[Sheik]

I think we need to continue our conquest of other nations for a good part of the medieval era. I don't know if we have really set our eyes on one victory type but either way we will need a lot of land and cities to reach our goal.

EXPLORATION IS A MAJOR PRIORITY! We must get Uber Isle and continue to explore the world after that.

[Sheik]

By the way Sir Ralph not that it is important but your new location name:
Schluckspecht und Schweinshaxenvertilger displays wierd.

[Harovan]

Sheik: I think you are perfectly right what concerns further conquests. Mainly for the luxuries. That will help the builders among us as well.

What's wrong with my location? It means "Excessive beer drinker and eater of grilled knuckles of pork" and is a decent hint, that I must be in Bavaria.

[Sheik]

Maybe it is just my screen settings your name is all off center for some reason.

I just tried refreshing and messing with my settings a bit and it seems fixed.

[Reddawg]

I haven't joined the party but I thought I could use the statistics to back up (or refute) some of what has been said.

1.OPD is right in that you may be underestimating Banana HQ; it is currently the fastest growing city (100% growth over last millenium).
2.Science is becoming a problem; the literacy rate of Apolytonia has fallen from 1st for the last two millenium to SIXTH.
3.Lack of infrastructure/public works is the cause of many of Apolyonia's problems: the atrocious disease rate (worst in the world), the falling life expectancy, and the fact that manufactured goods is falling behind other nations (although productivity has shown consistent rises).

[Spiffor]

Sheik :
Not to argue, but rather to understand your position : how do you think further conquests (except finishing off France) would be sustainable for our underdeveloped infrastructure ?
I'm sure you have an answer, please share it, thx

[Treestumpx]

I have read all of the responses under both treads from the War Academy and DIA and having thought about our current position, I would have to put my weight behind what has been proposed and debated here. To pursue an offensive Medieval area with a large troop build up would most likely be folly.

I am not against any military buildup, but only against a large buildup.

At this time we need to look at our weakest area and rebuild that area into a profitable and productive venture. We need defenders adequate to the task of avoiding and detering war with the other races while we seek to construct infastructure to obtain the most from our nation. We suffer the effects of enveloping jungle, the inability to travel quickly and safely (roads) and allow the free flow of commerce. All of which we are capable of correcting.

Building an expensive (shields) attack force and then proceeding with the expensive (lytons) upgrading at a later date would be a sound plan if it were not for the fact that this would tie up our resources and allow our adversaries to pull away from us. This would leave our civilization in the dust economically, scientifically and culturaly.

You have to remember that our critical angle comes from our inability to research our technologies independantly, resulting in our dependance on trade with other nations for these scientific items. This in turn leads us to economic, scientific and culture dependance on the amount of money we generate.

To waste our precious resources on trhe development of offensive units when much needs to be done within the borders of our own provinces would be folly.

This in the long term spells success.

[Harovan]

I have a question to our honorable DIA members: When, where and how would you prefer to build our Forbidden Palace? That we need one, and pronto, should be out of question, I'm talking with expert industrialists. So try to answer in a constructive way.

[Sheik]

Sheik :
Not to argue, but rather to understand your position : how do you think further conquests (except finishing off France) would be sustainable for our underdeveloped infrastructure ?
I'm sure you have an answer, please share it, thx

This is a good question and I haven't given it a lot of thought to it but I believe that we can build offensive units and defensive units (1-2 defensive units per city is plenty) for awhile making sure that we only stop building military when it is completely necessary. As a Despotism we may even want to consider getting our cities to a point where they grow every other turn and then pop rushing units. Once we have a lot of land and a strong military we can build all we want and the other civs hopefully wont even consider attacking us. At around this point we need to start seriously thinking about how we want to win. If we decide we want to win by conquest then exploration becomes even a greater priority then it already is. We should choose one of your cities to build the Art of War too. Then when we go to war we don't need to eliminate them but instead we could pillage their roads and take most of the cities. Once the war is over and if our target is still alive we can hopefully demand cash from them every so often. I believe that conquest is easier the earlier you do it (I don't know if this is true fro Diety because I haven't played many Diety games) because the longer you wait the more you have to conquer and the more resources and time you need to put into it. If we stop war completely in the medieval era then we may be touble later on. The more we build the more the AI builds.