Area 25 : Tech Plans - Project lain

[Donal Graeme]

After reviewing all the facts, I think that rushing for Astronomy requires too much planning ahead. We might get it just to find the Greeks stumbled upon a Zulu Destroyer. However, I do think that we should rush for Education, after finishing Feudalism. We don't know if we will have access to Saltpeter, so Gunpowder is iffy, but Education can put us on to the path to Democracy or Astronomy. IMO, it would be easier to get to Astronomy, as it would take only 4 techs, compared to the 6 of Democracy. So I say rush for Education, access to Cathedrals and Universitys could really boost our Economy, by allowing for larger cities and selling techs.

[MrWhereItsAt]

OK... time to get things straight. I support the following techs as soon as we can get them.

Feudalism (we are currently 24 turns away from this)

Monotheism - we NEED cathedrals if we are going to do any growing at all - the 4th citizen is unhappy without a temple, with a temple we can't currently get beyond 5 (we have one luxury resource - Dyes)

Gunpowder - a major advance, I hope everyone will agree. Paves the way for future military units, whenever we go for them. Concerns have been raised about whether we will have Saltpeter or not - remember it appears on Hills and Mountains as well as Deserts. Surely it can't be bad to at least find these resources so we know where to get them when they are wanted badly enough! And if we do have it, what a bonus to have Musketmen before any other Civ uses them!

Otherwise, the techs are far off, but I see the point in aiming for Banking, which will help with money stresses. Education is something many are outspoken about getting, but let's look at it for a minute:

We can build Universities - great for science and culture, but expensive (4g/turn). There is little way we could support this without a Republic, which necessitates both getting that tech as well as a major disarmament and population growth for it to be worthwhile. The Great Library is also cancelled - what if (unlikely as it is) we get this from Paris? We don't want to expire it until we have leeched as much as we can get out of it. Granted, Paris will come long before we turn towards Education, but it is a double-edged sword as it is.

Democracy is a far-off tech, and presents the same problems for us as Republic - we need to be sure that we are stopping our aggressive expansion and developing furiously before any such government choice.

And as for Astronomy - whyyy??? Are we planning on becoming a sea-power now?

[Shiber]

A great summary MWIA, some good points raised.
Just to clarify: I personally don't know why people are aiming at Astronomy. I think they might be confusing this with Navigation which comes after Astronomy and will allow us to find the missing continents / islands.
Now, it would be great to have Navigation but we shouldn't worry about not being the first to find the lost civs. From my experience the AI only begins to travel ocean tiles in search of new islands and continents until very late in the game (no sooner than the beginning of the industrial era).

[Spiffor]

Democracy is a far-off tech, and presents the same problems for us as Republic - we need to be sure that we are stopping our aggressive expansion and developing furiously before any such government choice.

Well, since we won't be able to compete with other's infrastructures and production bonuses(Greeks, Germans, Brits, or Persians if they get to iron), we'll be unable to to have an agressive expansion. Agressive expansion, before we've built a serious infrastructure, would be as irrealistic as a builder's strategy was at the beginning of the game.
Democracy should arrive just in time after we've cleared this jungle, and built cathedrals / libraries etc. in every important city (if we invest heavily in building : the sooner our libraries and universities are out the better)

[Harovan]

Project Lain is it, of course .

Trying to steal the Republic through an embassy is a nice method to burn money and gain nothing. Republic is a completely useless tech right now, given the fact that without martial law the 2nd citizen is unhappy (and not the 4th, MWIA, that's Regent) and that we have to pay upkeep for every unit. We'll have to continue warfare for a while more. We still need a leader for an FP, we still need to hook up 2 more luxuries (french wines and american incense will do). And playing the nice guy without a sufficient and well-developed military is on a map with 11 neighbors just hazard.

Ah yes, Spiffors proposal, that giving in on extortions of our multiple neighbors is cheaper than researching (or buying) Chivalry deserves the " of the week" award.

[Togas]

We are going to need those knights for quite some time in the middle ages, so stick with Project Lain

btw, how many of us actually know what "Lain" is? I'm surprised to see the reference, actually. Interesting choice for a title.

Rush to Musketeers and tech-trade us close to Democracy and Astronomy.

Of course, without a research budget, Apoc's not going to get very far very fast.

--Togas

[Aro]

Originally posted by Togas

btw, how many of us actually know what "Lain" is? I'm surprised to see the reference, actually. Interesting choice for a title.

--Togas

Now I'm curious. What is "Lain"?

[Donal Graeme]

I have reconsidered my earlier advice to try for Astronomy. I have looked at the game file, and realized how stupid I was. Does anyone realize how long it will take a size four city to build a cathedral? Forever, and the same for a University. At this point, military options are much more viable. By stealing luxuries, or buying them (the less prefered), we can make people happier much easier than we could by constructing expensive buildings. Also, I keep on forgetting that we are next to Bismark, who happens to be the most agressive guy around. If we give him any opening, he will declare war on us. So I know support getting to Gunpowder at the very least, and maybe even Military Tradition. With Cavalry we could gain any tech we want, simply by taking their capital from them. Also, since Cavalry remain the main line attack unit until Tanks, they will be very useful for a long time.

[Spiffor]

Cathedral = 80 shields (we're religious)
Knights = 70 shields.

I don't see how knights are more viable than cathedrals.

[Harovan]

After one of the 11 AI civs has attacked us, you will.

[Togas]

Originally posted by Aro
Now I'm curious. What is "Lain"?

A short Japanese anime series about a teenage girl who's confusing world is a blur between the "wired" and normal world. It's odd, beautiful, and bizzare with, perhaps, the coolest opening theme song in the history of Japanese animation.

The series itself is difficult to explain and follow, but there is a group called the Knights in the Wired world that play an important role in the story.

This link for any curious fans: URL=http://misslain.homestead.com/]Lain Info[/URL]

--Togas

[Spiffor]

[Civ3 general rant]Civ3 is urealistic !!!!! [/Civ3 general rant]

I don't know if you already had an appeasement policy in your Civ3 games. I'm used to them (do them all the time). In only ONE game I have been attacked despite, because I had absolutely no iron and a crapstart. In all my other games, appeasement tactics proven quite cheap (about 40 gold every 10 turns or so in medieval), and unrealisticly efficient.

We need a good defense force (30-shields pikemen), in order not to be a too easy target. If we do like this, the AI will accept not to attack us, because we'd be a difficulty.
Besides our cheap cathedrals will give us more culture (more tolerant AI), and above all, more people able to work and make us shields.

Making knights would serve a short-term purpose if we really were threatened. But with the adequate numbers of pikemen, the threat is far from being great.
When 2nd American campaign is over, we won't have to struggle for our survival anymore, except if we forget to build our infrastructure, and enter late medieval / early industrial unprepared.

[GodKing]

I agree spiffor. The AI recognizes when it will have a hard fight against someone (the our military is the same size message) or an easy one, and is far more likely to attack or bully an easy target that a hard one. If after france we have enough force to go after america again, and we choose to do so, then we will need to focus on our defences and infrastructure. I intend to start now by getting some graineries in cities that will become our powerhouses (and that don't need aquaducts) even though anything above a 5 pop is worthless at this time. we can use these cities for churning out settlers and workers until we have the ability to build cathedrals and enough lux to make a real difference.

I still thing that invention should be a high priority, with or without gunpowder, as leo's workshop is just to good to just blow it off. Think of it this way - from spear to musket is 60 gp (if I remember correct - I am at work), with 2-3 in each city, and a total of 15 cities, that means we have to spend 2000 +/- to upgrade. with leo's, it is 1/2 or only 1000 +/-. If money counts, this is the first and best way to save it (unless you think we won't need to upgrade....)

[Harovan]

Do what you want. After Bismarck or Xerxes took the first 2 cities and people ask, where our military is, I will bump this thread.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Togas
A short Japanese anime series about a teenage girl who's confusing world is a blur between the "wired" and normal world. It's odd, beautiful, and bizzare with, perhaps, the coolest opening theme song in the history of Japanese animation.

The series itself is difficult to explain and follow, but there is a group called the Knights in the Wired world that play an important role in the story.

It isn't just the Knights. You also have God in there and there is a French connection. Eiri is also a reference from Lain. I finished watching the series Sunday morning. I'm also listening to Boa's Duvet right now.

You people aren't arguing enough. This is one of the most important decisions of the game. It will decide what we will do in at least the next 3 or 4 months. I am making sure I don't have a strong opinion on this. I will just choose what people say is the best option, and then defend that decision in various threads.

For those of you thinking about govenment techs, here is some stuff from a thread on Republic v. Monarchy:

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
The key to winning in Civ3 is the constant warfare. You need to have GLs, free workers, and resources to build up your civ, and to weeken AI civs at same time. To fight wars, you must be in Monarchy.

Originally posted by Theseus
There are some differences that matter, given certain circumstances.

Here are the differences tht I can think of:

* Free units:
Monarchy - 2 for towns, 4 for cities, and 8 for metros.
Republic - none.

* Military police:
Monarchy - up to 3.
Republic - none.

* War Weariness:
Monarchy - none.
Republic - some (level 1).

* Corruption:
Monarchy - some (level 2).
Republic - less (level 1).

* Tile bonus (not sure if I know this well):
Monarchy - none.
Republic - yes... I believe it is +1 gold for cities and +2 gold for metros.

So, if you are committed to a large military, Monarchy goes a long way.

If you have a large empire, and a smallish military (what are you thinking?), then Republic can pay off.

Originally posted by Arrian
As I discovered in my "game of ultimate power" Monarchy corruption is pretty much comparable to Republic corruption - it's just that you have a huge drop-off in total commerce generated. But, like you point out, you don't have to pay for your armed forces. I was supporting huge numbers of units, had well-placed Palace & FP, and most of my "core" cities were on rivers or lakes, meaning they were all size 12 and generating a fair amount of trade.

The only time I really debate between republic and monarchy is if I'm playing a non-religious civ. If I'm religious, I can just switch whenever. If I'm not, this is a big decision. I've gone both ways with it. First, in the aforementioned GoUP, I went with Monarchy and had a lot of success with it. In my most recent Chinese warmongering rampage, I went with republic... and had quite a bit of success with that. WW was hardly a factor, because large numbers of Riders can tear through an AI empire pretty quick