A whole new level to the game $: your input

[GePap]

I don't think anyone will be a peasant - first of all, positions should be given out only to those that will participate- NOT- to every person who is a citizen. We are left with plenty of good positions for everyone.

Lets take the city of Seeberg: pop 1, or two population points. Perhaps (I don't know exactly), the city is producing 3 food, 1 shield, 2 gold. that leaves 3 food, 1 shield, 2 gold. The city has nothing in it. As I see it, as far as distributing wealth, if we set 1gold=1 shield=2 food, then the total wealth is 4.5 gold. Now, this city can support 3 players: the Baron of Seeberg, who gets the production from outside the city limits: hes probably making just .5 gold.
The Governor of Seeberg, who collects from the city's production: 4 wealth, and a merchant in Seeberg, who is making zip. NOw, both the Merchnat and Baron would like to see major improvement to Seeberg- the Baron would like jungle cleared, mines built, roads built, to increase his wealth. The Merchant would like a temple or market built, to increase their wealth, and the governor is part of the gov, so they have a job to do.

Now, this system I propose has nothing to do with how people spend and what they can spend on, but it does tie people and their earnigs to the activity in the game.
Also, we could always institute other classes, like priests, who's wealth comes from happy faces from relegious buildings, and other sorts of specific things.

Lets say in 100 bc, Seeberg has a temple, connected to a road and we have 3 luxuries present, a market, barracks, pop. of 5., with the pop. working mainly grassland with roads and mines: So, figure 1 happy face from temple, 4 from luxuries, 12 food, 6 shield, 12 gold.

The Baron now makes 5 gold from food and 5 from shields, for a total of 10 gold.
The Merchant makes 6 gold from the bonus from market and 4 for the happy facesd from luxuries, for 10 also.
The priest (if any) makes 1 gold from his happy face.
The governor is still making 4 gold, or 5 if no priest.

Now, this would be the base earnings- corruption and taxes could then be figured in, as well as any earnigs from investments and so forth- again, this would be a system simply to figure out base earnings- has nothing to do with spending or anything else.

[Kuciwalker]

Hint hint CIV3 ROLEPLAYING GAME

It was shot down a while ago (more just ignored).

We need a seperate game for this.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I don't know, I was thinking as all of the members involved would be Aristocrats. Each city has hundreds to thousands of citizens and the actual members make decisions and argue directions for our civilization. Reducing people to jobs in cities seems to be beneath them. I would enjoy the speculation and gambling on wild business ventures more entertaining.

Maybe, we could find some random #/event generator and could tie business/investment success results to that.

[jdd2007]

i dont think it should be tied to the game as much as GePap said. waaay too complicated.

lets get a very SIMPLE system NOW then we EXPAND on it as we GO ALONG

what do you think? we could start it right now and it could be very simple (ministers, bussinessmen, reporters, the people) and we could make it bigger, better and more complicated as we go along.

[Captain]

Okay, back to basics then.

Things to decide for the C3DG Parallel "Economy" Game

1) What is the goal?

To accumulate wealth, and therefore status and good living - or in this case, a sense of satisfaction or just bragging rights. Hopefully, this will provide a good measure of fun in trying to achive this goal.

2) How do we achieve this goal?

By making sure our income is greater than our expenditure so that there is a net gain.

3) Where does this income come from?

Definitely NOT fixed "salaries" as it appears proposed. After all, something can't come from nothing. That is the equivalent of just printing money without a basis for it.

We would have to base our income on PRODUCTION of GOODs and SERVICES.

You cannot build a house without materials and labour. You cannot run a government without materials and labour. You cannot operate a business without materials and labour. Heck, you can't even "live" without materials and labour.

This then, is the basis for wealth (and income). Producing goods and services (G&S) that are useful to a) ourselves and b) others. In exchange, we receive G&S that we find more valuable. We also produce wealth when we take something (like logs) and transform it into something more useful/valuable (like a house). The invested labour produced something greater than the sum of its parts.

That is the basic concept of wealth-generation, that in the process of refining things by labour and exchange (comparative advantage), we have "more" than before. It is not a zero-sum game.

Therefore, our economy is based on the consumer and trade. We need consumers to purchase our goods, and producers to provide for our consumption. So we need* to be both.


4) Uh..., exactly how do we determine what Goods and Services we can produce?

Well, we could just make it up. But that would be boring and stupid. (ex. "Hey, I just built a billion homes in 1 turn in Tassagrad." )

In real life, there is scarcity/limitations. You can't build a billion homes in 1 turn, because you don't have the labour force required, and you don't have the materials. We are limited by what this world offers us. We can amplify the value of material things by our labour, but not create something ex nihilo. (And even labour is a finite resource, if you consider it work-energy expended which requires food and water. labour can be amplified by labour-saving devices like tractors, mills, etc... but those also require energy - coal, oil, hydro, animal, nuclear, etc...)

What do we base our available resources on? On the world that we live on, of course. And since we live in Apolytonia, we use that. To increase the value of our holdings, we need to develop Apolytonia, build it up. But to increase our available resources, we need to expand Apolytonia. (So hawks and doves are equally satisfied.)

So as a producer, let us assume first off that the only labour we have, is our own (or the group we represent as the owner/master). This can be amplified later as we develo the game further. But for now, is all the same. This "unit of labour" is what we use to refine GOODS and provide SERVICES.

Then we determine, how much material goods do we have access to? Well, I say that depends on where we live. Each person then needs to have a home city which gives them access to the tiles in that city's working radius. They can produce according to the tiles (for now, to start). We can work this out in more detail later but an example is that I own a plains tile near Apolyton. I can therefore produce 1 shield (construction material), 1 food, 1 commerce (fine merchandise). If I own the horses plains tile, then I can produce 1 horse too - which would count as a labour boost. If I owned a dyes tile, then I could produce 1 luxury. Get it?


5) Do we really need expenditures? Must we be consumers? Can't I just sell without buying?

Yes and no. We don't really have any needs, so we aren't a good set of consumers as we'll all be looking to sell things and make money, but no one looking to buy. So then, who "buys" our products if not us?

While consumers create demand for goods - including such "non-perishables" as housing since a house is only useful is someone can make use of it - we don't need to be the consumers (with mandatory expenditures) if we can find other consumers to provide that.

How do we do that, without arbitrarily making it up? You shouldn't be allowed to just say" I sold 20 million bananas" to a large population that doesn't exist. So we tie the market to the game. The population of the game in cities (heads) is tied to markets/consumption. This provides the base consumption. Then any expenditures/costs we have, is extra.

Example: X lives in del Monte. Produces perishable product Y. Sells to local market (2 heads in city, plus any citizens living there). Makes money in return. Is guaranteed sales to the 2 heads. Sales to citizens is gravy.

Problem: How to determine market share? If A, B, C, live in Del Monte, all selling the same thing, which will the 2 heads buy from? since they're not "real", they can't choose. Flip a coin?

We also need to determine what these "markets" are willing to give in exchange for our products. It can't be arbitrary. No selling bananas for billions of gold. Or trading 1 banana for a house. Demand price remains a problem since fictional markets can't make such decisions.

If we can't solve these 2 problems, then the only market is us.


6) Where is the challenge?

From optimizing your assets. Using what you have to improve your status. By taking advantage of opportunities, such as business deals, emerging "markets", exploiting "gluts" and monopolies, and lowering operating costs. among many other ways of enriching yourself.


---
(btw, that was also an encapsulation of real economics as I understand it. someone who studies it or works with it irl can correct me too.)

[Captain]

just thought of this...

7) Government Taxation and Funding

Some services provided by citizens, such as ministers running the game and planning the improvement of our nation, judges hearing cases and ensuring justice and order, are services not "consumed" by specific individuals, but by the community at large. They are for the public good, and therefore, entitled to public funding.

But public funds don't come from nothing! As above, we agreed that wealth generation must be based on something "real", not arbitrary. By paying salaries without government income, that would be the equivalent to the government spontaneously creating money. Of course, the government must have income to fund its operating expenditures. This come from taxes.

I'll leave it to our new MoE, or an appointed C3DG-PEG (Parallel Economics Game) to figure out a tax formula.



---
Note: The something from nothing principle is the key factor in tying the PEG to the actual game. This is the most natural choice to provide a basis for an economy: resources, production, and markets taken from the game conditions. Since the game operates according to "fixed" rules, this is no longer arbitrary.

[Captain]

Or... super simple (maybe so simple, it's dumb),

we go on a point system? services given to the forum, like writing articles, editing the paper, being a minister, judge, or even active citizen ( try defining that!) get points.

Anyways, I also thought instead of house size for status, you could rise "classes"...

like peasant/labourer -> small landowner -> townsman - > merchant -> landowner -> elder -> councilman -> mayor -> regent -> noble -> marquis -> duke -> prince -> ??

or something like that... this post is dumber than my previous two. i must be out of ideas for tonight.

[Sheik]

This will be great if we can get it going.

If we have person A, B, and C all selling the same thing and two heads then we could use a computer program to decide who they buy from (I could write one in VB if anyone is interested).

As for costs and taxes we could either do it randomly for every city or we could design formulas for deciding taxes and what it costs to say build a house. We could even base tax rates on the current game sliders.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I still don't see the need to compute houses and stuff. Our members represent less than 5% of Apolotonias populations so we can just assume they're all part of the ruling class (which is appropriate for this age). As nobles we can all have an equal income representing the average tax revenue you would generate as a noble and we would spend/invest this money on projects to try to one-up the other nobles. Basically this would be a "game" amongst the noble citizens of Apolytonia.

We could determine products/services. Then we have a random number generated to determine the market demand that turn. Then we have a random number to determine how much of that market each competitor gets.

Each citizen should start there business in their home city and then pays a fee to enter a new city's market.

Proposed items:
Bananas
Weapons
Dyes
Horses

[Captain]

ESTATES!

there was the word I've been looking for!

I like GhengisFarb's idea that we're all "nobles", members of the aristocracy with many underlings. Since we make the laws and are essentially a "legislature" (some may disagree), and are so politically involved, it makes sense that we're already in control and have a certain initial wealth and power.

(*aside, this may mean that we're not a true democracy , only one where franchise is limited to nobles - so be it!)

Let us say that as a noble, your wealth is composed of holdings - the sum total of which we will call your Estate. This Estate will take care of itself - without you necessarily having to micromanage everything. You only have to step in when you want to do something MORE than maintain your Estate. So, the mroe you participate, the more opportunity to enrich yourself - but there's no guarantee you'll be successful . High risk, high gain. Low risk, low gain. Those who participate less, will not suffer, except that they may "lose out" in comparison to the more active.

(Sheik, if you can program some basic VB, that market share idea is good. We just have to determine a basic formula. Another side program to keep track of other things would help too.)

Since we're all nobles, we must all be landowners (traditionally according to history). Say that each participant "owns" a tile to begin with. They can expand their wealth from there, including purchasing new lands - generally from others. (Or from the government - which is a way the government can raise funds - conquer more lands, then sell them to highest bidders)

So...

1) Every participant claims a tile to represent their physical Estate. We'll need to figure out how to solve conflicts. You cannot claim a city centre tile as your estate (those are public lands, however you can have investments in the city).

2) The tile, or physical Estate, will be your prime holdings. From there, you can branch out into other businesses, namely in city centres.

3) You can produce certain products and services. Services might be more difficult to determine than products, but things we do on these forums that "contributes" can be counted as services. Products would be based on Civ 3 "products".

Tiles generally produce 3 things:
a) Food -> represents human energy, labour
b) Shields -> represents raw construction materials
c) Commerce -> represents low-grade generic merchandise

You can trade them for other things, including cash, if a market exists who wants your goods.

To improve your estate, you can trade any of these or stockpile any non-perishables (shields, commerce, cash) to certain limit. To improve your estate, you can also "construct" things, mainly buildings - using those shields. Simple enough eh?

But it isn't much fun to have an economy game where we only have three categories of generic goods! Construction materials? Merchandise? Food? Booooring!

Therefore, we should make an expanded list based on Civ3 and these tile ideas. All you need to do, is select a product to produce, based on what your tile limit allows you to. Otherwise, it's your choice.

Perhaps we could start like so (and expanding as our tech improves):

(shields) Construction materials:
- Wood + energy -> lumber
- Stone + energy -> Dressed stone

(commerce) Merchandise:
low grade + energy -> higher grade

- trinkets -> widgets -> gadgets
- pottery -> porcelain
- furniture -> nicer furniture
- robes -> linens and togas -> royal robes
- papyrus -> paper -> stationary
- bows -> longbows
- spears -> pikes
- axes -> swords


(food) Energy/Labour:
at this time, all energy comes from human or animal labour, later, we can develop somthig to account for oil,coil, etc...

- food
- cattle (livestock)
- horses (workhorses) + energy -> warhorse?

Estate Improvements (in addition to stockpiled goods/cash)
- Cottage (a new tile with no former owner)
- Villa -> Manor -> Mansion -> Chateau -> Palace
- Silo (allows stockpiles food)
- Warehouse (raises stockpile limit for all else)
- Mill (labour saving device)

City holdings:
- Townhouse -> Mansion
- Shop -> Store (improves market share)
- Workshop -> Factory (higher grade merchandise)
- Guild

etc...

4) We also need to figure out the market. Here's a few simple formula:

#consumers = #heads in local area + other nobles

# units supplied = sum total of all units produced locally or imported

market factor = #consumers divided by # units supplied

price index = list of item: standard price for a 1:1 ratio
(example: food=1, wood=1, lumber=3...)

current price = price index * market factor

therefore, if more consumers than supply, price goes up. if more supply than demand, then price goes down.



So then.... what do you think? I've tried to incorporate many different people's ideas into a cohesive whole. Still needs work, of course...


Number one question: DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?
Number two question: should it be MORE or LESS complex? as Civ 3 players, we can handle complexity, but how much?


---
Note:
Does anyone seriously think that this would endanger our nation's prospects in the actual C3DG, because of this parallel economics game? I don't. Even if I had a major financial holdings based on certain tile improvements - and the Ministers want to change those tile improvements, I'm sure all my clamouring about how they're ruining my Estate won't change their minds one bit. It'll just add another layer of roleplaying fun. The newspaper will have more to write about. Just imagine the headlines "Government plan for heavy mining operation steamrolls local opposition" "Sheik Granaries suffer as fertile fields expropriated by heavy Industry advocates" "Dyes factory in Ninot's family for generations suddenly runs dry"

Besides, generally, improving the nation improves our wealth so there isn't any inherent conflict, though isolated exceptions can occur.

[Captain]

Example:


Bubba claims his tile as a forest square north of Seeburg.
No one else contests this, so it's his.

This is an unimproved forest tile, so zero commerce, two shields and one food.

Since he can't stockpile food, he may as well sell it and stockpile cash buy. Seeburg has 2 heads, but no other citizen supplier. However, the city produces 3 food (2 from the city tile itself), so supply is 3 and demand is 2. Therefore, the market factor is 0.67.
So he is able to sell his 1 food for $67 (assuming a base price index of $100/food). Now he has $67 and 2 shields. He decides not to sell his 2 shields right now, because he wants to build a house soon.

After several turns consistently selling food and stockpiling shields, he now has $670 and 20 shields. At this time, the population of Seeburg rises. There are 3 heads now. But the heads work the grassland tile. Making the total supply 5. Market factor (3/5) causes price to fall to $60.

Bubba decides to stop selling food (energy) and instead use that energy to start building his villa. Since it takes 1 energy to convert 1 shield into a part of his house, this turn he is able to construct 1/20th of his home. Next turn, he wises up.

He now has 1/20th of a villa, 21 shields, and $670. Duh! I don't want this to take another 19 turns to build! And I don't need to stockpile any more shields! I have more than enough. So he decides to SELL his two shields. There are again, 3 heads. Assuming the total supply is 4 (2 from him, 1 from city centre, 1 from special grassland), the market factor is 3/4 =- 0.75. Since he has 2 units, he sells it for $150 (assuming a base price index of $100/shield). He ALSO HIRES some labourers. There are three heads there. He wants all of them.

No one else is hiring (since he is the only noble of Seeburg), so he only has to pay the current market rate of $75 per head- since 1 head gives 1 energy and that costs $75 (3 food demand divided by 4 food supplied). Total of 3 x $75 = $225.

Out of this, he gets 4 labour (himself + 3 heads) at a net cost of $75 per turn ($225-$150 from selling shields). House completed in 5 turns. A house built entirely this way would cost $375 in labour, 20 shields, and take 5 turns. Leaving him with a villa and $295 (670-375).

Alternatively, he could continue to sell his food, which would cause energy prices to fall to $60 (3/5 instead of 3/4), and then hire the labourers back for 3x$60=$180. Subtract his revenue from the shields sold and we have a $30 cost per turn. But he has only 3 workers, not himself (or rather his estate workers, since he has sold their food/energy/labour). Therefore, the house will take 7 turns, with him firing one labourer on the last turn.
This gives a total cost of $150. ($30x7 turns - $60 saved on last turn). 7 turns, $150 and 20 shields, leaving him with a villa and $520. Much cheaper, but takes longer. Of course, you pay a premium when you rush build!

Or, he could do all the work himself, earn $150 a turn for 20 turns. Leaving him at the end with villa that cost him nothing but his own labour and $3670. Seems best? Not necessarily, remember this is twenty turns later, as opposed to 5, or 7. That means the turns saved in building the villa, 15 or 12 turns, could have been used in another business venture, possibly making Bubba even wealthier than otherwise.




At any rate, Bubba finally finishes his villa. He holds a great week-long celebration for friends and family at great cost, but think of the house-warming gifts . After all is said and done, Bubba thinks of his next business venture. Perhaps he will invest in the city itself. But before he can do anything, tada! The government wants property tax! They take $100!

Bubba writes his congressman in protest... waitaminnit! He is a noble! He protests in the legislature himself with great passion. But, they pay him no heed. Therefore, he takes his remaining money, and finds a weapons maker. He pays GengisFarb for all available weapons, hires some mercenaries, and goes to burn down the Taxman's house.


Now, assume Bubba had earlier petitioned for a road to his estate. Therefore, he would have 1 commerce. This merchandise could have been traded for additional income or for other goods. The exchange rate to the "heads" depends on the market factor and price index.


All the above assumes no other nobles are trying to move in on him. If desirable, Bubba could have tried hiring other nobles (not the actual noble, just their estate workers) to provide extra labour. Since these other nobles know that Bubba has hired all the available local workers, they will charge a premium to send their workers to help Bubba (in essence, Bubba is paying higher prices in exchange for other noble's food). Nobles with high food production can afford to rent out labour and also do their own thing too. Exchanges between nobles depends only on what the nobles agree too. They can do so at lower than market prices if they wish, if they are feeling generous.



Too complex?

[UnOrthOdOx]

This is getting good. Land improvements are better than owning shares in the actual city, though. I still don't quite understand all of it. I need an instruction manual for the mini game now.

What are the hot keys again?

Seriously, who is going to manage this thing? That is going to be some work.

[Captain]

yeah, i know its complex.

i'm trying to think of ways to simplify it, without making it boring.

do you have any specific suggestions?

I figure we can set up a spreadsheet to calculate all the local markets, demand, supply, and prices.

To keep it simple, only products within the same category compete with each other. Since there are initially only 3 categories (shield, commerce, food), it shouldn't be too hard to track. This doesn't mean you can't think up your own product and roleplaying stuff like that, just that if its in the same category and similar to someone else's product, then you'll have competition.

Later on, if we feel up to it, more categories can be added. Like specific resources.

[UnOrthOdOx]

As long as it lets me and my staff get paid for the Gazette.

This really is looking good now, though. Few notes, though:

Can people own more than ONE tile? This would give an advantage to those who got early good producing tiles. We need to make it as fair as possible as well. I like tying in resources. Maybe wood only comes from jungle and forest squares to give their owners a more even field since the actual square is less productive?

If someone can manage this, I will sign up. We really should have started this from the beginning. Would have been great.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Just for a base (open to ammendment as good ideas come forward)

RAW RESOURCES
Ore (Shields)
Iron (Shields from tiles with the Iron resource)
Horses (Shields form tiles with the Horse resource)
Timber (Shields from jungle or forest)
Dyes (Currency from tiles with the Dye resource)

REFINED RESOURCES
Metal Goods (refined from Ore by Smithy)
Armaments (refined from Iron by Armory)
Leather Goods (refined from Horses(Cattle) by Tanner)
Lumber (refined from Timber by Lumber Mill)
Fabric Goods (refined from Dyes by Weaver)

OTHER BUSINESS
Shipyards (requires lumber)
Fishery (Requires ships, whales, and/or fish)
Market (Requires finished goods)
Trading Company (produces exotic stuff like tea and cocoa)

Basically we could have some sort of random # generator that determines demand and price per Economic Turn (may not necessarily want to restrict our turns to the game turns - possible set a time once every week or every other week to conduct and compute business) based on each product.

We could have some base products to have a more stable price and some exotics to have wildly fluctuating prices.