A whole new level to the game $: your input

[Captain]

GhengisF, demand and price can't be entirely random. Otherwise, how will anyone be able to be a good businessman? Then wealth generation won't be a question of any skill, but just luck of the draw. That would be like playing civ 3 and having every battle be rock-paper-scissors, and instead of building stuff by accumulating shields, there's just a random chance a temple will spontaneously appear.

Demand and market price must have a basis somewhere. There can be some randomness to it, but there must be some base value reflecting certain conditions. Those conditions must also not be entirely in our control, or that would be too easy.

We could create an aggregate market, based on the population of the civ game (very easy to find out) - or some formula based on happy/content/sad faces. Market demand would be regular for staples (such as food) and more volatile for exotic goods (like dyes?), as you say.

But I totally agree that we need not restrict ourselves to game turns.

[Captain]

Determining DEMAND

Local Demand:

System LD1:

Depends on local market (made up of the city "heads", city production, city commerce) plus resident nobles. Each noble decides for himself what he wants so the below only applies to the "fictional" market.

Food demand: 1 per head

Shield demand: Equal to city shield output

Commerce demand: Equal to city commerce output

Simple enough? If the demand exists, then you have someone to sell your food/shields/wares to. Other nobles living nearby could be an extra customer (more demand) or a competitor (another supplier). This would affect your profit of course.

This allows for market growth and some fluctuation. This is my first choice.

System LD2:

Happy citizens want 2 food, 2 shields, 2 commerce.
Content citizens want 1 food, 1 shields, 1 commerce.
Unhappies don't want to buy anything from you.

Happier cities have more demand. This is very simple, but ultimately unsatisfactory, in my view.

***
Aggregate Demand:

Alternatively, we could do away with the idea of local markets (cool as it may be) and assume just 1 aggregate economy.

System AD1:

Food demand: Equal to total population of all cities.

Shield demand: Equal to total production of all cities.

Commerce (wares) demand: Equal to total commerce in all cities.

System AD2:

The same idea as LD2, basing it on citizen happiness, except counting all the citizens together as forming one, national market.

***
Assume we can not yet sell to foreign markets. We'll work that out later.


---
Note: since there are so few females present, i hope noone minds that I only use the male pronouns

[adaMada]

Sounds like a really good and fun dea, but I get a headache from even thinking about it . If it were simple enough, I'd participate, but if it's as hard to understand as it seems to be, then I don't think I can deal with it .

As a sidenote, maybe all the important formulas could be coded into javascript and posted on a web page... that might just work unless the formulas are really really really weird and complex...

Just a few thoughts...

-- adaMada

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
We could have some base products to have a more stable price and some exotics to have wildly fluctuating prices.

For, example (I'll use dice to represent the random number generation)

Each city rolls a die to determine their contribution to the demand for a specific good:
Each Town contributes 1d6
Each City contributes 2d6
Each Metropolis contributes 4d6

More stable goods would replace the d6 with d2+2, this way we have some stable markets, like grain and lumber, and some VERY speculative markets like cocoa and spices.

Demand Possibilities:
1d6 Very speculative(1-6)
d4+1 Somewhat speculative(2-5)
d2+2 Speculative(3-4)

The very speculative goods have the greatest possibility for higher profits but also have the greatest possibility of lower profits.

[Sheik]

Brilliant

[Shiber]

Over my dead body!
Absolutely no dies whatsoever.

[Captain]

Long, but easy-to-understand STEP-BY-STEP Intro "Manual"


1) Goal?
To generate wealth by increasing the value of your Estate holdings.


2) WTF is an Estate? speak english!

Your Estate represents everything you own, control, or have a share in (we call these assets). It also represents your ability to earn revenue/income with will increase the value of your holdings (assets).


3) How?

By trading products and services your Estate provides, for cash or products or services that you want.


4) I know what cash is, but what are products and services?

There are three product categories, food (energy), shields (raw building materials), commerce (merchandise).

I don't know how to define services yet.


5) Uh... so how do I make these products?

Each participant will start off being given a tile to represent their land. Your land tile will produce food, shields, and commerce. Since you're on a civ 3 site, you damn well better know what these are! So pick a good tile to start! In the future you *may* be able to acquire more land (more tiles, and therefore more production).


5.5) Wait... you're going too fast! How do we decide who gets what tile? What if two or more of us want the same one?

You'll all get a set amount of cash at the start to purchase lands. All lands will be assessed with certain base values. If you compete, the land will go to the highest bidder. If you buy less valuable land, you'll have leftover cash. Right now we have hundreds of tiles and I doubt we'll get that many starting participants, so no worries about being left out.

The only tiles you're NOT allowed to own are city tiles. Those are public lands and tiny individual city properties owned by townspeople. As a noble, your Estate is always giant pieces of land, outside the city. You can, however, have City Interests - but we'll deal with that later.

6) So.. I have this tile that makes products, but how do I trade for it? Who do I trade with?

You sell to the market, and buy from the market. As long as there is someone who wants your product, you can sell it. Otherwise, you're stuck with it. You can stockpile your product if it is non-perishable.


7) Okay, but what is the market?

The market is composed of the other players and a fictional market base that is linked to the game.

Market Base demand will depend on certain factors.
Each head of population wants 2 food (just like Civ 3).
The total shields produced indicate the demand for shields.
The total commerce produced indicates the demand for commerce.

Demand from other players, will depend on other players!


8) Alright, but what are the exchange rates? What determines prices for selling and buying?

Well, from the other players... you arrange that between yourselves.

As for the Market Base price, that depends on Supply and Demand.


9) I know what Demand is, we figured that out in #7, but what determines supply?

Simple. Just like demand, supply will be composed of the supply provided by the other players (nobles) who are selling at the time and the fictional Supply Base - which is linked to the game.

How is it linked? Think of it this way. All the production of food, shields, and commerce in Apolytonia comes from tiles. Your tile contributes to this whole, as do the tiles of the other nobles. Any unclaimed tiles (which will always at a minimum be equal to the # of city centre tiles), will be outside noble control and form the basis for supply.

Occasionally, some buildings in Apolytonia amplify the production (like marketplaces, banks, factories, harbours...). These are called City Interests, and if you want to partake in the profits they realize through this amplification process, you need to invest in them. But we'll leave that to another post.


Still with me? Good!



10) Yup! So far, so good... but what if we're competing for the same market? Duke Nukem is selling 1 unit of grain on the market and Count Chocula is also selling 1 unit of grain. But there's only demand for 1 unit of grain. Who gets to sell?

Whoever sells at a lower price, of course. We will assume that the two units of grain are the same for this purpose.

When your supply competes against the basic supply coming from the unownable city tiles, you will always lose. Market Base Demand comes from the city populations and it meets its own demand with the Supply Base first. The only time you'll be able to sell to the Market Base, is when Market Base Demand is outstripped by the Supply Base.

Since shield base demand = total shields in game, and shield base supply = shields produced by city tiles, you will always be able to sell shields since the difference comes from shields from your tiles. The same goes for commerce (merchandise).

But food... well, if the population is growing, then food supply will be higher than demand. The city supply is small (2 fd) so there will always be demand for some outside food. Therefore, some nobles will be able to sell their food, but not all.

You can always sell to other nobles (players) if they are willing.


11) What about quality? Surely quality counts?

Of course, but we're not able to make things that complex, yet. Namely, even if one sells a higher grade of grain, we have no simple way of determining whether the market will choose high grade or low grade, based on price. If they had money for both, they might buy both, but grain is still grain. After eating enough, why would they want to unnecessarily buy more? Advertising could help... but we can't go there yet. Let's keep it simple for now.



12) I thought of a problem. Why would any of the other nobles buy anything, or choose not to sell? They would always sell, so this game would just turn into whoever has the best land wins. That's dumb!

Right. There has to be a reason for the nobles to sometimes choose to BUY, or stockpile, instead of just selling everything for cash. After all, what good is money if it's not there to be spent? If you hide your gold in the ground and someone steals it, why be sad? It wasn't doing you any good anyways...you may as well have had a rock there instead.



13) Hah! So I'm right! But what's the solution?

We need products and things the nobles will want to purchase, or money will just acculumate and do nothing interesting. We need things they value more highly than that they are producing, or else they won't trade - they'll just stockpile. We need a form of wealth-generation, a way of adding value. Economists call this VALUE-ADDED.



14) Value-added... okay, that makes sense. How do we do that?

Wait for the next post and I'll tell you.

[Captain]

15) Wait, go back a second. Can you make the supply-demand thing easier to understand?

Yes. Here we go.

FOOD Supply = Food from player tiles + Food from non-player tiles + Food from City Centre tiles

FOOD Demand = Food demanded by players + Food demanded by townspeople (2 per head)

If Supply > Demand:

Townspeople always buy from city centre first (they don't like us greedy nobles). Since the city centre can never meet all their demands, they must buy the rest from us.

Lowest price wins.

If Demand > Supply:

Townspeople always get city-centre supply first.

Then, highest bidder wins for the remaining supply.



16) How about an Example?

Say our country has a total of 30 heads (added up from 12 cities) and ten players (nobles owning estates). The nobles don't need any food (we assume they meet their own basic food requirements off their own estate, and that the food they produce is surplus).

So our demand is 30x2=60 units of food.

We have 12 cities, each producing 2 food. So the Supply Base is 12x2=24 units of food. Since the townspeople like to encourage local business, they buy this first.

The remaining demand is then 60-24 = 36 units of food.

Five nobles have irrigated grassland, and five have forests/hills. So supply is 3x5+ 1x5 = 20 units of food.

There is a shortfall. You may be confused as the population is growing, but remember that there are also other unclaimed tiles that are producing food (at least 30 tiles are being worked). However, since these tiles have no owner, they can't compete in the market. They are generally automatic losers. However, leaving the nobles with absolutely no competition would allow crazy prices that the townspeople would have no choice in paying. If we allow 10 times normal, why not 100? or 100000?

So we cap it at the ratio of demand to supply times the normal price. (in this case, take 36 divided by 20, giving you an inflated price of 180%). Pretend the unowned tiles (otherwise automatic losers) sell at this inflated price, so if you sell equal or lower, they'll buy from you first.


Now, let's assume there are only 20 citizens. Demand is 40 units. 12 cities giving 24 food leaves only 16 food remaining. Now, supply exceeds demand. Remember that any unowned tiles will automatically cut their prices according to the Demand:Supply ratio (16:20 = 80%). Nobles who cut prices further will win out.
Simple enough?

[Captain]

17) Wait, what about shields and commerce? arne't those treated differently?

Only in determining Demand. The Supply function is the same.

Let's use the same example as above. First, shields.


12 Cities. Total production is found to be 35 shields, of which, 12 come from the City Centres themselves, meaning that the remaining 23 shields must come from the land (assuming no waste, and no factories to amplify shields).

The five nobles with irrigated grassland have no shields. The others have, say, 3 forests, 1 mined hills, and 1 hills-> for a grand total of 3x2+3+1 = 10 shields.

Demand > Supply. Ratio is 23:10, meaning that the default price (selling price of shields from the unowned tiles) is 230% normal. Since demand>supply, you can always sell equal to this amount and be guaranteed a buyer. Now, if a player wants to buy instead of sell... well, they need someone willing to sell to them. This will usually be at the 230% mark, but maybe a friend (another player) will give a better deal, out of generosity.


Now, let's say that changing circumstances leads the government to switch which tiles are being used, so that production drops to 20 shields from 35. Again, 12 shields are provided by the city centres, so 8 remain.

Now demand< supply, so the default price goes to 8:10 = 80%. The nobles who sell at less will be able to sell first. Once 8 shields are sold, no more will be bought.


18) Wait, what about Waste and Corruption?

Well, considering that waste and corruption reduce the total production demand, this negatively affects selling prices (as it should). Think of the "waste" as a blackmarket offering cheap shields that reduces demand for your legitimate shields.



19) What about production and commerce boosts provided by things like marketplaces and factories?

Simple. They increase production demand (total shields), right? So they improve the market demand for your shields.

But... more shields are produced than are supplied. Where do these phantom shields come from?

Well, they are a "product" of improved efficiency due to labour-saving devices and human innovation, such as the factory. (Or for commerce, the marketplace, or bank).

This leads us to the idea of City Interests. But I'll leave that for the "Advanced Manual".


20) I think it's time you told us about Value-Added.

No. It'll have to wait. I got to go.

[jdd2007]

wow, it seems complex, but is almost simple. so...

Questions.

1) all we do is manage grains and commerce and shields?

2) wheres the fun in that?

3) how do we factor in ministers, presidents, reporters and companies like skywalkers? [surely, they have a part in RP]

4) will there be a 4th commodity [besides grain, commerce and shields] like the gold coin or 'lyton.' this way, ministers and reporters dont need land to have wealth.

5) a. so everyone keeps track of their own wealth?
b. would any people be needed to just keep track of all trading?

6) how would you factor in homes without making the system to complex?

Comments.

1) i like captains plan, if he can answer the above questions

2)i sincerely hope this will be seperate from the game (to a point)

3)a list of current occupations-
-Nobles
....landowner
-Government Officials
....President and Vice-President
....Ministers
....(historian?)
-other
....reporters
....party leaders?
....speakers?

4) nobles should have more than one tile, but a limit should be made on the number of tiles one noble can own in one city.

5) i gtg

[Captain]

jdd,
1) not all. that's just the core.

2) again, it's only the starting point, but should be fun enough for now. why?

- the initial bids for land will be a fun "auction"
- you play against other players, friendly competition is always fun
- you get to watch your Estate grow
- remember, you can stockpile resources, and sell at other times too... so the market will be more dynamic than I've described
- you can buy more land too!
- no limit on # of tiles on noble can own means you should try to prevent each other from obtaining a strangehold on a city

- we haven't decided on local/regional vs national markets, I used national markets for simplicity, but local markets would be even more dynamic and fun

later we'll add things like:
- special resource supplies, like dyes, ivory, etc...
- City Investments
- gambling!

3) Ministers will go through the estate bids just like everyone else. They'll get a salary on top of that though, paid for, of course, by taxes.

4) yes, the 4th basic "commodity" is cash.

5)
a) why not? people can be trusted, i hope. but it is simple to verify as changes won't happen that frequently.
b) depends...

6) we'll create a building listing for reference, that will be the commodity -> building conversion. make sense?

ex. if shields are cheap, building a home will be cheap. if shields go up, housing value will too, since people may find it easier to buy a house than to build it themselves. only thing is, buildings don't move, so you'd have to sell your land with it, unless your buildings are in the City itself.


i'll get to the rest of the comments later...

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Shiber
Over my dead body!
Absolutely no dies whatsoever.

I said "for example" as if I started writing code many members wouldn't have understood. It was just a suggestion anyway and it doesn't look like anyone liked the idea.........

[jdd2007]

Originally posted by Captain
jdd,
1) not all. that's just the core.

2) again, it's only the starting point, but should be fun enough for now. why?

- the initial bids for land will be a fun "auction"
- you play against other players, friendly competition is always fun
- you get to watch your Estate grow
- remember, you can stockpile resources, and sell at other times too... so the market will be more dynamic than I've described
- you can buy more land too!
- no limit on # of tiles on noble can own means you should try to prevent each other from obtaining a strangehold on a city

- we haven't decided on local/regional vs national markets, I used national markets for simplicity, but local markets would be even more dynamic and fun

later we'll add things like:
- special resource supplies, like dyes, ivory, etc...
- City Investments
- gambling!

3) Ministers will go through the estate bids just like everyone else. They'll get a salary on top of that though, paid for, of course, by taxes.

4) yes, the 4th basic "commodity" is cash.

5)
a) why not? people can be trusted, i hope. but it is simple to verify as changes won't happen that frequently.
b) depends...

6) we'll create a building listing for reference, that will be the commodity -> building conversion. make sense?

ex. if shields are cheap, building a home will be cheap. if shields go up, housing value will too, since people may find it easier to buy a house than to build it themselves. only thing is, buildings don't move, so you'd have to sell your land with it, unless your buildings are in the City itself.


i'll get to the rest of the comments later...

ok. great.

[Spiffor]

I assume anyone willing to charge for anything can do so ?
A stupid example : if citizen #123 becomes a professional seer, he could charge other players for telling them their future ? (as long as the others are willing to pay)
Such a service economy will be great for our nation, and will integrate very well in Captain's model : basically, Captain's model shows a way to get money semi-automatically, to afford such services. In this case, we'll have very involved people wh'll get very rich (because they'll work on plenty of things and will charge for them), and less involved people would still be able to buy

[Spiffor]

----------------------Investing in public buildings ?-------------
BTW, I don't think private owners need to invest in a public building (marketplace, harbor etc.) to profit from it. Indeed, the state often builds infrastructure which will boost economy. The state does so instead of private actors because no private actor would have interest in investing in it individually (economists call that "externalities")

By the same token, a road / irrigation built on one of your tiles would be free of charge, but would benefit you, like it profit the whole nation. By "free of charge", I don't count corruption fees

--------------------------Trasnaction management---------------------------
About the "Transaction manager" issue, maybe we should allow people to become "Bankers" (I know it's too early). I mean, there are people who manage transaction for a small fee. This way, more people will be interested in doing this timetaking job.

Since we'll probably have corruption, all transactin shouldn't be opened to public. Instead, I think people should PM their transaction orders to their bankers, who keep track of their fortune. People would also post their transactions publicly in the banker's thread.

For example, let's say Davout and GoodFella are bankers. I want to give 2 Lytons to Captain, and we both are in Davout's bank.
Since my transaction has nothing to be ashamed of, I post in the "Davout's Apolytonian Bank" thread, and Davout acknowledges, and modifies our accounts : he has an excel table of some sort on his hard drive. Instead of debiting me 2 Lytons (the transaction amount), he debits me 2 Lytons and 10 Apos (the bank fee). Captain still gets 2 Lytons only. Davout became richer by 10 Apos.

Now, the example of Jdd2007 (from GoodFella's bank) wanting to pay me 1 Lyton : he advises GoodFella of the transaction, publicly or not. He tells GoodFella I'm from Davout's bank.
GoodFella reduces Jdd's account accordingly (1 Lyton + bank fees) and tell Davout to raise my account by 1 Lyton.

This was purely an example : as I picture it, bankers will charge as much as they want, and provide the services they want. No need to put strict rules now.

Simple verison of the bankers' idea :
- You tell the banker your transaction, via the forum or PM
- He does everything (adjusting your account and your partner's account)
- He takes a small charge.
End of the simple version.

------------------------Protection against cheats and errors--------------
However, to avoid errors or cheating, fortunes should be held public at all times. Also, it's possible to have an account in one bank only (but it's possible to switch from a bank to another)

This system might sound impracticable, because it's complex... But we'll need someone to keep track of transactions if we don't want to risk errors or cheating, and giving these people a financial interest is probably the best thing to do.
I know our early currency system should allow us to trade peer to peer, without anyone watching over. But we're not talking about true, hard metal coins. We're talking about virtual numbers which can get as big as you can say. Since cheating is sooooo easy without control, it's very possible some of us do cheat, for various reasons.

You could say : "let's just have all transactions and all fortunes held public at all times. People will manage their fortune on their own". That would be a simple and extremely efficient solution.
But it forbids any secret transaction, and thus any corruption. Better for the integrity and efficiency of the game, but worse for its overall flavor IMO (what if we had an entirely corrupt administration ? )

Here's very common corruption possibility : a worker is assigned to work around Napoleton. There are 2 rival landowners there, and each one has an unroaded grassland tile. The PW minister has no reason to prefer one over another : there is no deciding factor into roading tile 1 first, rather than tile 2. What do you think will be the deciding factor eventually ?