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Originally posted by Agathon
This is exactly what is in dispute. The Old Testament is not reliable if viewed as a history book. I don't think you would find any reputable historian who would be willing to hold that the Hebrews were a world power - to argue that they were is simply not backed up by any reasonable evidence.
Yes but you still have no evidence that this constituted being a major power. The Hebrews were never ever a dominant military/cultural power in the manner of Rome or Byzantium. All of the civilisations in Civ 3 at one time or another were the dominant power in their area of the world (perhaps excepting the Carthaginians as I said above).
No one disputes this. I would add Maimonides to your list. However, during this time there was not a Hebrew empire. I think that this contribution to world history would best be served in the game by the "Great Persons" feature I suggested above.
Israel is a very small country and cannot be said to have been the dominant military /cultural force in the world since its founding.
David is about the only one that is world renowned and his details and dates are disputed as I said above. In any case the Maya, Incas, Huns, and especially the Byzantines have much stronger claims given the criteria that the game designers seem to be using.
Look - if the Hebrews get in then according to the same criteria the Scots, the Irish, the Hittites, the Assyrians, the Sumerians, the Etruscans, and many others should get the same treatment. Of all these I think the Scots and the Etruscans have equal claim with the Hebrews. The Scots in particular have great leaders (Will Wallace, Robert the Bruce), a golden age (The Scottish Enlightenment), great thinkers (Hume, Smith), and at least as much influence on history as
the Hebrews.
Remember that the Hebrew religious influence on the world has been mostly by proxy - through Christian and Islamic civilisations.
Eh? Classical and Hellenistic Greece is the most culturally dominant civilisation in the history of the world. Look at the tech tree in Civ 3 and see how many of the advances were invented by Greeks or perfected by them. We are talking about the founders of Western Art, Architecture, Political Theory, Philosophy, Rhetoric, Literature and Science. A civilisation which included the largest share of great minds in history. A civilisation which bore two of the world's three greatest philosophers, a large share of its greatest literary figures, generals, politicians and scientists. A civilisation which is responsible for the vast majority of core mathematical discoveries. A civilisation which through Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world and left behind a culture which is the foundation of Western thought for the next 1600 years.
Next to the acheivements of the Greeks the rest of the civs in the game look pretty pathetic.
This is exactly what is in dispute. The Old Testament is not reliable if viewed as a history book. I don't think you would find any reputable historian who would be willing to hold that the Hebrews were a world power - to argue that they were is simply not backed up by any reasonable evidence.
Yes but you still have no evidence that this constituted being a major power. The Hebrews were never ever a dominant military/cultural power in the manner of Rome or Byzantium. All of the civilisations in Civ 3 at one time or another were the dominant power in their area of the world (perhaps excepting the Carthaginians as I said above).
No one disputes this. I would add Maimonides to your list. However, during this time there was not a Hebrew empire. I think that this contribution to world history would best be served in the game by the "Great Persons" feature I suggested above.
Israel is a very small country and cannot be said to have been the dominant military /cultural force in the world since its founding.
David is about the only one that is world renowned and his details and dates are disputed as I said above. In any case the Maya, Incas, Huns, and especially the Byzantines have much stronger claims given the criteria that the game designers seem to be using.
Look - if the Hebrews get in then according to the same criteria the Scots, the Irish, the Hittites, the Assyrians, the Sumerians, the Etruscans, and many others should get the same treatment. Of all these I think the Scots and the Etruscans have equal claim with the Hebrews. The Scots in particular have great leaders (Will Wallace, Robert the Bruce), a golden age (The Scottish Enlightenment), great thinkers (Hume, Smith), and at least as much influence on history as
the Hebrews.
Remember that the Hebrew religious influence on the world has been mostly by proxy - through Christian and Islamic civilisations.
Eh? Classical and Hellenistic Greece is the most culturally dominant civilisation in the history of the world. Look at the tech tree in Civ 3 and see how many of the advances were invented by Greeks or perfected by them. We are talking about the founders of Western Art, Architecture, Political Theory, Philosophy, Rhetoric, Literature and Science. A civilisation which included the largest share of great minds in history. A civilisation which bore two of the world's three greatest philosophers, a large share of its greatest literary figures, generals, politicians and scientists. A civilisation which is responsible for the vast majority of core mathematical discoveries. A civilisation which through Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world and left behind a culture which is the foundation of Western thought for the next 1600 years.
Next to the acheivements of the Greeks the rest of the civs in the game look pretty pathetic.
and then to say that we had organised schools long before anyone else , ........
not even to mention that its a jew who build the worlds first comp , ......
not to speak about the OS and other programs , ......
yeah its a bit an irony reading those words , afterall would they be written if those Jews did not do what they did , ........
its a bit funny , .......
anyway , the Jews versus Israeli should be in , even if its only to make some great scenarios , ......
have a nice day
, one more reason to bring Israel inside the game , one more subject for a scenario 
I like Agathon's definition of a civilization. Surely the hebrew people contributed towards world history and surely they have suffered, very much like lots of other people (Kurds, Armenian, etc.) but I don't think that they should be a civ in the game.
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