Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 5: CSA)

[Stefu]

...and in any case, from Celts onwards, our lists with Wern are the same.

In fact, only differences are different dispotions of Poles and Turks. Well, maybe someone else has completely revamped list, with Commercial - Scientific Mongols and Militaristic - Religious Dutch

[Wernazuma III]

Yeah, why not...

No, really: If anyone thinks he can present a good alternative: post ahead, it'll be included in the poll if it meets the criteria!

[jsw363]

Wernazuma- I don't mean to cause more problems, but could you explain to me why the Incas are listed as industrious? You are right that they were expansionist since they were able to amass such a large amount of territory in such a short period of time. I was wondering though if they might be better as scientific for their extensive knowledge of agriculture, architecture, astronomy, mathmatics and engineering.

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks, Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific Incas
Expansionist - Industrious
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians

[Wernazuma III]

jsw: You don't cause any problem, your contribution is welcomed!
I chose Incans to be industrious because of the massive architecture and the advanced road system they managed to build through the mountains. Yet, scientific can be a choice too, opinion I guess...

So, now we have 3 lists to opt for, anyone else? Deadline is in 5 days. Then I'll start a poll on which list we'll take.

[Va-Toran]

Scientific Incans provides an opportunity to remove any blank combinations. I have moved the celts into the Exp-Ind slot, on the basis of their metalwork and salt mining which they then traded as equals with the greeks, I think it is a better combination than Exp-Rel for them.

This allows me to move another civ in to the Exp-Rel slot, the Portuguese are by far the best fit, like the Spanish they converted all their colonies to Christianity (The British and Dutch didn't) and are one of the most religious countries in europe, although not nearly as fervent as the Spanish, it is a satisfactory alternative to Exp-Com.

This allows the Vikings to become Exp-Com, not only were the vikings great explorers but they also weren't organised and unified enough to be deemed militaristic, most expeditions were organised by local chieftains without the knowlege of any higher authority.

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks
Expansionist - Religious Portuguese
Expansionist - Scientific Incas
Expansionist - Industrious Celts
Expansionist - Commercial Vikings
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians

I had considered moving the Arabs to Exp-Sci, but I think they are better where they are.

[Seth]

I had considered moving the Arabs to Exp-Sci, but I think they are better where they are.

IMO, if you move the Arabs anywhere, move them to Exp-Rel. But I think Rel-Sci fits them better than any.

My preference for Vikings is Mil-Com, but I suppose you could do a good job with Exp-Com and making them extremely aggressive.

[Seth]

Re: How to make a maritime civ

Originally posted by Depression
Quite a few people want to add new CSAs the the list. Unfortunately, this is not currently possible with the editor- however, there is a way to make a "maritime" CSA. I apologize if this has been suggested before, but here's my idea:

1. When checking the two CSAs for a civilization that you want to be maritime in the editor, only check one- for example, if you want a commercial/maritime civ, just check commercial.

2. Use Gramphos' copytool to make a new version of every ship, identical to the originals but having some extra movement or costing less shields or whatever.

3. Make the new ships available only to the maritime civs (and make the original ships unavailable to them).

Voila! A civ that has, as its CSA, the ability to build better ships. If the powers that be like my idea, the list of CSA-civ combinations can be revised to include maritime civs.

I like your suggestion an awful lot. But how do you trigger peaceful golden ages? If the UU for the Dutch is some improved cargo ship, I'd imagine that their golden age would usually be triggered peacefully. However, withoutout the ability to give GWs the maritime attribute, you're up a creek.
Peace

[Patroklos]

When trying to figure out civ attributes you have to take into account their characteristics over their entire history. The Spanish people have a very long history streaching back to Rome and before (we are talking about the civilization, not the nation state, and civilization is the namesake of the game). Just because they were expansionist for 200 years of a more than 2000 year history doesn't make them expansionists. For most of the two millenia of their existance religious is the appropriate attribute. I am just using the Spanish as an example, the same thing could and should be applied to the rest of the civs.

Interesting Stuff

[szoszon]

Originally posted by El Awrence


Polish-

Militaristic? Let me brace myself while I laugh...

That only means how lame you are.

Read this:

http://www.domnasz.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

http://www.zem.co.uk/polinuk/fed/contrib.htm

The site contains a search engine which will show the names of 26,500 recipients of Poland's highest military decoration for valor from 1792. It is the only such list available in the world.

http://www.wwdir.com/polishbk.html

I dont have time to look for more but
use google..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=military+history+of+poland

Next time if you have no idea what are you talking about
just dont talk.

M.

[aahz_capone]

IMHO, I liked it when the spanish were expan-relig. if they were military they would have screwed around more in WW1 and 2 (even after their civil war). expan definately fits the colombus story. If they share a place with the celts, tough.

I also think the Mayans are a bad idea, not a civ persé, since they were pretty damn cool, but as a plug for the sci-exp, no. Lets not forget they didn't invent the wheel in their entire history up till the end.

SCI-EXP SOLUTION: Luxemburg? No, just kidding. How about AUSTRIANS! Seriously! The austor-hungarian empire was pretty hip until the 1900s. And Vienna is a hub of Scientific renaissance. Lets seriously consider the austrians, who are not as mil as their german brothers as most people think they are. And as special unit a special canon: The czech republic used to be in the austro-hungarian emipre, and they have a long history of quality artillery spannig centuries that still is some of the best today.


and btw, the Swiss are more mil-ind then the ethiopians. hey, not a bad idea, heh? While I think mil-com is better for vikings then turks, but I could live with the vikings being exp too, but we have portugal for that don't we?

[Hasdrubal]

One note:

Phoenicians should be expansionist - commercial.

We invented the concept of a maritime trade empire! Way back when the Romans were still illiterate peasants and the Greek philosophers were doing twelve year old boys, our trade empire stretched across all the shores of the mediterranean. From Lisbon in the west to Biblos ('bible', 'book') in the east. From Carthage ('new city') in Africa to Panormus ('Palermo') in Italy.

[Panag]

Hmmm , well just an idea , would it not be better if every tribe got lets 3 , or even maybe 4 special "properties" , i know it can be done with the editor , but do that on lets say 5 tribes , when playing with 16 and the games crashes , should Firaxis not calculate this in ?

Example the Hebrews the are religious and commercial but also militaristic

the Americans , well commercial and militaristic and industrious and scientific

some minor tribe could only be religious

and so on and on

the main point is , more possibilities for the tribes , and the comp should not crash !

just think of the possibilities !

have a nice day

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Hasdrubal
One note:

Phoenicians should be expansionist - commercial.

We invented the concept of a maritime trade empire! Way back when the Romans were still illiterate peasants and the Greek philosophers were doing twelve year old boys, our trade empire stretched across all the shores of the mediterranean.

I think I would prefer to have Alcibiades 'doing' me, rather than be thrown into the belly of Baal or Moloch as a Phoenician/Carthaginian child sacrifice:

http://iquebec.ifrance.com/heberg/pubp.htm?Time=1014531894&Url=/antescriptum/culture-sacrifice.htm&Nom=antescriptum&POP=1

By the way, Massilia/Massalia/Marseilles started out as a Greek trading city-

'GREECE
Greek voyages of discovery in ancient times were motivated by the desire for military victory as well as for economic power. The Greek bireme , with two decks of oarsmen, could travel long distances swiftly and efficiently, and also maneuver easily in battle. In 510 B.C., Scylax , a Greek in the Persian Navy, was one of the first to record his travels along the coastlines of India and Egypt. First he traveled overland to the source of the Indus River in the Hindu Kush Mountains of Afghanistan. He then set sail down the river to the Arabian Sea. Following the coastline closely, Scylax explored the Gulf of Oman and the southeastern end of the Arabian Peninsula. Scylax's 30-month journey took him all the way around modern-day Saudi Arabia, through the Nile canal and into the Mediterranean Sea. With the information Scylax brought back, the Persian Emperor Darius was able to conquer the Indus River Valley and expand his empire.
Pytheas , a seaman from the Greek colony of Massalia (in what is now France), was commissioned by local merchants to find a trade route that would circumvent the Phoenician monopoly and open up the tin trade to the Greeks. Not only did Pytheas accomplish his goal, but he also circumnavigated the island of Britain and explored islands in the North Sea and possibly traveled as far north as Norway. On his return home he navigated the North Sea to what is now Germany before returning to Massalia. It is believed that, of all the known ancient explorers, his voyage is the longest in terms of distance.'


Still, your point is taken about the commercial/expansionist nature of the Phoenicians/Carthaginians.

[TheBigTurkey]

What about just giving each civ 3 special advances? Like Turks Militarist/Scientific/Religious, Spanish Militarist/Expansionist/Religious, Arabs Expansionist/Scientific/Religious, Germans Militarist/Scientific/Industrious, etc.? I like the idea, makes interesting combinations .

[TheBigTurkey]

Oops, somebody posted this already, sorry. Didn't see that. Sorry panag, maybe my ideas different, however.