Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 5: CSA)

[Wernazuma III]

To move on, this is the place to discuss the CSA for all Civs.
I've put them as I found them in the other threads, sometimes changed them a bit to evade triples or even quadriples! But still there are 2 triples left, so we have to work this out. There'll be much mud catching anyway.

Modified list:
Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Polish
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

[Ecowiz Returns]

I would prefer to see the Portuguese as
Commercial/Expansionist.

Reasons:
Portuguese History - the Portuguese had Commercial interposts in every country; in his max, the Portuguese Colonial Territories covered a mass of land uncomparably larger than the original Portuguese Territory.

Religion was not a diving force of the Portuguese History: Other than Fatima (and that is only in the XXth century), Portugal hasn't any important Religous focus point. Although it seems, in latest inquiries, that the Portuguese are one of the most religious people of Europe, in actuality, the Portuguese History was much more built on the Expansion effort up until the end of the Portuguese Golden Age in the mid-XVII century.

UU - the Nau is much more coherent with a Expansionist Civ (if not a Maritime civ).

Gameplay: If the Portuguese become a Religious Civ in the Expansion Pack, those who play it have an incentive to build Wonders like the Hanging Gardens and the sorts. If they are Expansionists, the incentive will be to build those Wonders that are more related to our History (like Magellan's Expedition). If would make the simulation component of the game a bit more realistic.

[Stefu]

All those triples! I sat down and came up with this. It contains only two pairs and one unused CSA. Whaddaya think?

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Polish, Celts
Militaristic - Scientific Turks
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

[Jay Bee]

Werna
IMHO no other combination suits better the Spanish than Militaristic Religious.

[Zealot]

That's great, Stefu!
But I think we should get a civ for the expansionist-scientific slot available.

[Wernazuma III]

Stefu: Your list is much better than mine. The only thing I cannot follow is why Turks are Scientific, it doesn't seem to fit. The Phoenicians scientific? But well, that could go, if for nothing more than for game balance.
I agree with Jay Bee, Spanish should stay Militaristic Religious, maybe the Celts could be given Expansionist, Religious instead although they definitely were Militaristic. Hmmm...

I'll give it one or two thoughts and see how we can merge our two approaches.

[Stefu]

Turks are scientific mainly because I couldn't think of better special ability for them. I mean, they were really more militaristic than expansionist, if you think as I do and think of expansionist nations as those exploring and charting the world. (That's why Spanish became Expansionist, too. I mean, yes, Spain was militaristically important, but then there are Christopher Columbus and other Spanish explorers of America.) I dunno, there's just something in my brain connecting Turks and Germans.

[Wernazuma III]

While I don't disagree that Expansionist is also a possible trait for the Spanish I think it was much more the quantity of people going to the Americas mobilized by a militaristic society and the amount of "Great Leaders" who managed the enterprises that led to the rise of Spain. Both leads me to the opinion that Spain should be Militaristic, Religious.

It's not so easy to get balance and accuracy into one. My merging idea would also lead to 1 open slot and 2 pairs. But it kinda hurts not to make the Arabs Scientific...


Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Spanish, Celts
Militaristic - Scientific Polish
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Arabs
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

[Stefu]

Poles as Mil - Sci? Have there been too many inventions coming out of Poland? There was Marie Curie - who else?

Expansionist is a good choice for Arabs, but Rel-Sci would be the best. Still, it's pretty much the only place to fit Mayans. O' well.

BTW, doesn't the regular civ list have Aztecs and Japanese as Mil - Rel? That would give us four Mil - Rel civs. Better make Spanish Exp - Rel (fits in with the conquistadors and Isabella.) Alternatively, we could make the Celts Exp - Rel. In fact, let's do that. At least no-one'll be angry about the Spanish.

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Polish
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

How 'bout that?

[Wernazuma III]

Don't talk about conquistadors too loud
Actually I thought about Marie Curie . I just thought, it'd be better than putting Turks there.

The list looks good to me , I'll edit my first post.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Stefu: Your list is much better than mine. The only thing I cannot follow is why Turks are Scientific, it doesn't seem to fit. The Phoenicians scientific? But well, that could go, if for nothing more than for game balance.
I agree with Jay Bee, Spanish should stay Militaristic Religious, maybe the Celts could be given Expansionist, Religious instead although they definitely were Militaristic. Hmmm...

Mmm....can't say I agree with you on the Celts being militaristic. For me, militarism has always implied a degree of organisation, a willingness to subdue individual or small scale concerns to a greater whole; the lack of organisation of the Celts, the inability to unify for any length of time contributed to the Roman victories over them- that and their indiscipline in battle, and the desire for personal glory on behalf of warriors.
I would actually stress the trading aspect of the Celts more, as they dealt with Greek and Phoenician and Etruscan traders as equals, their early Europe-wide rise to power was also founded on the extensive trade routes linked to the salt mines at Hallstatt:

http://www.stern.nyu.edu/~wyu/salt.html

http://www.accesscom.com/~wangbick/latene.html

The problem I have with the religious aspect is that although the Celts had a priestly caste, the religions/gods they followed differed from area to area, although some, like Lugh, were popular in various guises/incarnations over a wide area. Then of course you have the transition from pre-Christian faith to Christianity, and a change in Celtic culture. I think given the far-flung peregrinations of the Celtic monks and missionaries, the 'white martyrdoms' sought ought by Irish and British monks, the expansionist aspect of Celtic culture could, in a way, stand in for that.

Turkish, Arab and Islamic science:

http://www.geocities.com/~n4bz/gsr5/gsr502.htm

http://www.jannah.org/articles/contrib.html

http://www.ukans.edu/~ibetext/texts/paksoy-2/cam6.html

http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.ummah.net/history/scholars/

[Wernazuma III]

molly: I said that they definitely were militaristic because the cult they had around war was immense. They lacked organized forms of Military as the lacked bigger political unions, but war was an essential aspect of their culture. Nevertheless: We have discarded it anyway for balance reasons...

I share your doubts about the religious aspect too, but I'd say we keep it for balance reasons.

[Myrddin]

I have concerns about the Militaristic-Scientific CSA given to the Poles. This was not included in Civ III even though there were some good candidates like the Germans. I assume that this was because testing showed the combination to be too powerful.

On the other hand if we want Poland dominating the world, not being partioned...

[Robert]

I think the dutch are more scientific than industrious.

[Dr. Nick]

My only two gripes:

Ethiopians-

Ethiopians should definetly be religious. DEFINETLY. Too lazy to write out a real argument, but definetly religious. In fact, I'd ommit expansionist to make them religious.

Polish-

Militaristic? Let me brace myself while I laugh...