Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 5: CSA)

[Depression]

How to make a maritime civ

Quite a few people want to add new CSAs the the list. Unfortunately, this is not currently possible with the editor- however, there is a way to make a "maritime" CSA. I apologize if this has been suggested before, but here's my idea:

1. When checking the two CSAs for a civilization that you want to be maritime in the editor, only check one- for example, if you want a commercial/maritime civ, just check commercial.

2. Use Gramphos' copytool to make a new version of every ship, identical to the originals but having some extra movement or costing less shields or whatever.

3. Make the new ships available only to the maritime civs (and make the original ships unavailable to them).

Voila! A civ that has, as its CSA, the ability to build better ships. If the powers that be like my idea, the list of CSA-civ combinations can be revised to include maritime civs.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by jsw363
I don't especially like the Maya traits, but I guess that's the way it has to be. I don't see them as expansionist; I would prefer Commecial-Scientific. They never established a presence beyond the Yucatan and didnt' conquer many of the other minor tribes in thier region, so I don't think you could classify them as expansionist.

Expansioist is definitely the worst choice for Mayans: Rel-Sci or Com-Sci or Mil-Sci are the only possible choices, MAYBE Ind-Sci, but I wouldn't go for that...

hoevenpe: I like the idea of changing phoenicians and dutch!

Stefu: I like your list much but sth. in my mind still hates the turks being Sci... Maybe we could put the Mayans there (Mil-Sci). Then we could also put back the Ethiopians. That's no preferred choice for the Mayans, but well...

So we'd have:
Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Mayans
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians, Poles
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians

[jsw363]

Again, I'm not sure that the Maya were militaristic either and I don't like the Spanish being militaristic either. My knowledge of Polish history is sketchy at best, but I do remember the three partitions, which seems to indicate that they're not so militaristic. Also, I don't think that the Turks were quite as blood-thirsty as the Mongols when it came to expansion. They're definitely not scientific, and were surprisingly tolerant of other religions, so I don't think that these traits would fit them well either. So this is my proposal:

Militaristic - Expansionist : Mongols
Militaristic - Religious : Turks
Militaristic - Scientific : Khmer
Militaristic - Industrious : Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial : Vikings
Expansionist - Religious :Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific : Mayans
Expansionist - Industrious : Celts
Expansionist - Commercial : Portuguese
Religious - Scientific : Arabs, Inca
Religious - Industrious : Polish
Religious - Commercial : Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious : Koreans,
Scientific - Commercial : Dutch
Industrious - Commercial : Phoenicians

And as I am sure that others have stated on previous threads, the name Inca is a misnomer since it only referred to the emporer of the "Inca" people and not the people as a whole group. I am not sure what they called themselves however...

[Wernazuma III]

jsw363: Still Mayans were much less exp. than mil. There never has been a Maya-Empire, they never conquered bigger areas. Mil isn't my fav. choice for them either, but I could live with it, if it adds to balance. I surely cannot live with them being Exp.

Mil-Rel for the Turks is absolutely OK.
I think Rel-Ind is the only non mil. combination for polish that to some extend goes with LoD' poll results (2nd and 3rd choice in the poll)

The "Incas" called themselves Quechua but we should keep it for matters of recognition. It's like the Aztecs were never Aztecs but Mexica (Ma-shee-ca)... Non-Exp. Incas is absolute nonsense, they came and conquered, conquered, conquered, making the biggest precolumbian empire, streching from Columbia to central Chile. If anything, change the positions of Inca and Maya.

[Stefu]

Well, I still think that Turks would be better as Mil - Sci. I mean, they controlled a large area, yes, but it was by conquest - they didn't do much colonization or exploration at all, IIRC. OTOH, they did a somewhat good job in keeping up with the Western Europe, and weren't they in the forefront of cannon technology or something?

And I definitely think religious fits Mayans better than militaristic... so we're back at my last suggestion.

[Wernazuma III]

Stefu: Alright, Osmans had good cannons, but they didn't really invent it, they had good craftmen. I don't know, turkish scientists don't fit.
Could we arrange sth. with Mil-Com? Maybe making Vikings Mil-Exp or Exp-Com?
What abnout this (changed Turks, Ethiopians, Poles and Vikings):
Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious , Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Vikings, Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians

[Stefu]

Look, some of the CSAs for other civs are iffy too, so what's so hard to accept about Mil - Sci Turks? It's not like Sci is completely opposite of what Turkey stands for! Just get on with the Mil - Sci Turks, so we don't need to contort the CSAs any further! Vikings as Mil - Exp or Exp - Com certainly don't fit, as they basically weren't all that expansionist, apart from few colonies in Greenland, Iceland and Newfoundland.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Stefu

Vikings as Mil - Exp or Exp - Com certainly don't fit, as they basically weren't all that expansionist, apart from few colonies in Greenland, Iceland and Newfoundland.

Uhh...what about the Vikings in Ireland, and the founding of Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Dublin, Limerick, the Vikings of the kingdom of Jorvik, the settlement of Normandy, the Kievan Rus and the establishment of the states that would be the genesis for modern Russia, the Danelaw in England, the Vikings of the Orkneys and Shetland and the Faroes, the Vikings of the Highlands/Islands in Scotland, and long range Viking attacks on Nakur and other states in North Africa, the Cordoban Caliphate, and Byzantium and the Norman kingdoms of the sun, in Southern Italy and Sicily? And of course, the Norman Conquest of England...

That's a fair bit of expansion....

[Wernazuma III]

I completely agree with molly on this. Waraegan Vikings founded cities in Russia (Russia=Land of the "Rus", a Viking Dynasty) and sailed down the Wolga. They attacked Constantinople coming from there and some remained there as mrcenaries. They settled in England, Irelans, France and Southern Italy! Normanic Soldiers were the backbone of the crusades. And finally they came to the shores of North America. I think that makes them perfectly Expansionist...

[Stefu]

Well, okay, I can live with expansionist Vikings. That would leave

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Vikings, Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians

as the final list. While it's not perfect (I STILL think Mil - Sci would be better for Turks than Mil - Com), I could live with that.

Hmmm.. How about swapping Spanish and Turks? We could have Mil - Com Spanish and Mil - Rel Turks.

[Stefu]

That sounds fine. My list would be:

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Ethiopians, Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Turks
Militaristic - Industrious Poles
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians

[Wernazuma III]

Hm, I don't know, personally I'd prefer not to. Constantinople under turkish rule was one of the most important commercial centers... And more importantly we already have so many european commercial civs (Dutch, Vikings, Portuguese), but very few european religious civs (only Celts). I don't know, I'm kind of OK with the list we have worked out finally.
BTW: What do you really think about making 5 different lists subject of a poll? Then yuo could propose your fav. composition and I mine.

[LoD]

Wernazuma III: I am aware of that; however, keep in mind that I myself am speaking as a voice of many . Seriously, I do acknowledge, your, err, authority, but I would hate if all those heated discussions that took place over at CivGuild's Forums would turn out to be a waste of time (same goes concerning all the other participants of said debates).
Anyway, Badania means Research, not Industry. Przemysl is Industry, and you can see that wasn't quite the most popular pick in the poll . Generally, the breakdown was as follows:
-First CSA: Military (decided upon a majority of votes in the aformentioned "heated discussions")
-Second CSA: breakdown as follows (total 362, which I considered a sufficent number and closed the poll):

• Religious 48.34%
• Scientific 30.11%
• Expansionist 12.71%
• Commercial 6.63%
• Industrious 2.21%

Too clarify (and avoid accusations of being biased): my picks were Scientific (Copernicus, quite a few other researches, merits such as cracking the Enigma code) and Commercial (Poland encompased, and encompases, many important trade routes).
And now, why the "general assembly" decided on the two mentioned attributes:
-Military - contrary to what some of the posters here semm to think , Poles have actually proven themselves as excellent fighters in numerous battles they took part in. Cedynia 972, Grunwald 1410, Vienna 1683, Warsaw 1920, Monte Casino 1944... I'll be damned if I count them all.
-Religous - well, the primary argumentation here was that Poland was throughout history a quite religious country (cult of Marie etc.).
And, for one thing, Industry is not a good choice for Poles since Poland never really based its economy on manufacture - it was one of the major crops exporters at one time (the "granary of Europe").

Too further clarify: I am aware that I may seem to be only concentrated about one nation during the course of this discussion, however my strained shedule prevents for finding the time to discuss the other civs (because before I discuss such things, I usually do research), so forgive my apparent lop-sidedness.

[Stefu]

Mmhm. If there's that much of opposition of Poland being Industrious amongst Poles, I'll change my list to... this.

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Poles, Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Turks
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians

[Wernazuma III]

LoD: Am I really too authoritarian? I don't want to be, maybe I'm doing something wrong...
After all, my final list is completely different from my first proposal, so I think I tried to take other opinions well into account. Anyway, "Badania" was a misreading from my part. So, according to your poll-results Mil-Sci would still be the second choice. You have to see it like this: At least your poll shows what is the 2nd best combi, that's not the case with most others! It's a good guideline for choicemaking.
I really hope that my list is the best compromise between original proposals (including your poll) and balance, based on the discussion here and my own knowledge.
I'm not dictating this list into the ExtraPack however, there will be a poll among different choices. I only plea that the poll will not turn into a vote that looks only on certain civs and disregards the whole thing.
Maybe mine is not the most popular, maybe Stefu's list is really better, we'll see. I don't want to judge, but I had to make a coherent list and came to this conclusion:

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks, Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians