Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 5: CSA)

[Rosacrux]

Right-O! My NSH opinion on the current CSAs:

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks =Mongols OK, for Turks you could use Religius-Expansionist, or Religious Militaristic. That should suit them better, they conquered under the banner of Islam and up to the 16th century were really serious about it.

Militaristic - Religious Spanish= Nah, Expansionist-Religious. I firmly disagree with the militaristic trait for the Spaniard

Militaristic - Scientific Polish = Not really "scientific", nor militaristic... but is there anything better? I'd have to think about this..

Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians + Religious-industrious would be on spot more like it.

Militaristic - Commercial Vikings = Yo!

Expansionist - Religious Celts = Cool!

Expansionist - Scientific

Expansionist - Industrious Incas = Hmm... ok!

Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese = 100%

Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs = Good pick for the Arabs... the Mayans... dunno. Probably.

Religious - Industrious Khmer = I couldn't say.

Religious - Commercial Hebrews = Ya!!!

Scientific - Industrious Koreans = Scientfic? Koreans? Nah...

Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians = Again... why scientific? Mostly expansionist, if something. Darn, we need this "maritime" CSA...

Industrious - Commercial Dutch= OK!

[Wernazuma III]

Religious was a possibility for the Ethiopians of course. I discarded it mainly because I came to think about the religious diversity in the Ethiopian region. As Locutus stated, it was the only non-asian state that even had buddhist centers in the middle ages.
For the Polish we had initaially Militaristic-Expansionist, but we had a triple on that. Maybe Myrddin is right though, it could proove too powerful.

About the Spanish CSAs: If we change it (and I mess again with iberian fanatics ): We could put the Turks on the Militaristic-Religious spot, maybe the Polish too. Then we'd have Scientific-Militaristic and Expansionist-Scientific free. But what should we do with the celts? They definitely were not scientific!
Or we put Turks/Celts on Mil./Rel. and what to do with the polish? Let them remain on Sci-Mil seems not to be popular and making them expansionist? ...

Koreans: I really think we should let them there, if for nothing else than balance.

Post your ideas, but I'd prefer whole lists, we have to keep in mind not to let too many slots empty. We could discuss endlessly whether for one specific Civ we've made the best choice. Lamentably not all will end up completely satisfied

[Az]

Arabs : I think that expansionist fits more than scientific , despite their obvious accomplishments .
so I feel like Religious-Expansionsit is more like them. especially considering the fact that they did expand their influence in a very rapid way , and have considered it a very important goal.


and Rosacrux , is it possible that we'll have other CSA's ?

like isolationist ? maritime is a good Idea as well ...

Poland ? I would say rather Industious Religious ...( if something )

[Stefu]

First of all people, we have list which only has one hole and you don't, so -please- consider that.

This was not included in Civ III even though there were some good candidates like the Germans.

Last time I looked, Germans were Mil - Sci.

Also, Mil - Sci isn't nearly the best combination. Com - Ind, now, that's a combination guaranteed to kick arse.

Arabs : I think that expansionist fits more than scientific , despite their obvious accomplishments .
so I feel like Religious-Expansionsit is more like them. especially considering the fact that they did expand their influence in a very rapid way , and have considered it a very important goal.

Well, I still feel Sci - Rel is the best for them.

[Wernazuma III]

Dalgetti/Rosacrux: I wouldn't recomend additional CSAs for this pack anyway, the pack doesn't change rules at all! Maybe this could be part of the Expansion-Mod pack, but that's still faaaaar away...

[Pezeteros]

In my attempt to make it so that there is bo empty trait pair (thus just one double) I did the following 2 steps:
1) Set a 2 traits to each civ
2) Lessen doubles by doing some movings, so in the end there are no empties.

I think it is quite acurate IMHO for the most part. Well at least thats my proposal. Hope it is of some use

Militaristic - Expansionist : Mongols
Militaristic - Religious : Turks
Militaristic - Scientific : Khmer
Militaristic - Industrious : Celts, Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial : Vikings
Expansionist - Religious :Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific : Mayans
Expansionist - Industrious : Incas
Expansionist - Commercial : Portuguese
Religious - Scientific : Arabs
Religious - Industrious : Polish
Religious - Commercial : Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious : Koreans
Scientific - Commercial : Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial : Dutch

[LoD]

Wernazuma: Err, it may be my failling memory after not sleeping for 21 hours (and counting), but the poll results for the Polish CSA were Militaristic and Religious (of which none is actually my fav pick for that civ).

Myrddin: Drat! You have uncovered our conspiracy to attain global control! Now I must send my Polish brothers too eliminate you!
Zoon vee zall rule za world !

[Wernazuma III]

LoD: As I've said and Stefu also pointed out, we lamentably have to look on ALL civs. At first I tried to let the Polish Mil-Rel, then changed it for balance reasons. If you can come up with a good alternative for the Turks, please go ahead. Could you post the third most wanted CSA for the polish? I'm sure we can at least avoid making some completely unwanted polish CSA combination.

Pezeteros: A new approach, good! However, I have problems with Mayans being Expansionist, for they actually were everything but...

[Wernazuma III]

LoD et al, this could be a modified version of the list:

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Polish
Militaristic - Scientific Koreans
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Spanish, Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Mayans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

[Stefu]

Wern: How about making Celts Exp - Sci? That would neatly plug the last hole.

[Ecthy]

Poles and Militaristic?

[Wernazuma III]

Stefu: Celts scientific? It's tempting to fill our gap, but honestly, they never were, not even slightly...

Ecthelion: Although I wouldn't give the Polish the Militaristic ability either, the fact that Poland had "bad luck" in history and wasn't treated nicely doesn't necessarily imply that they were no militaristic society...

LoD: "Badania" in your poll stands for Industrious?
Maybe we could find some solution with Polish being Mil-Ind, putting Ethiopians somewhere else?


What do you all think of making 5-6 different lists with one gap/ no triples maximum and then let a poll decide on which we should take. We CANNOT keep up democracy regarding any specific civ, but at least we should try to make the whole CSA-list subject of democratic decision...

[hoevenpe]

Hi,

Wouldn't it be better to switch the Phoenecian and Dutch CSA?

So:

Phoenicians: Commercial / Industrious
Dutch: Commercial / Scientific

I think Dutch scientists (especially during the 1600s) have been contributing far more to world science that Phoenecian ones... The fact is also that the Dutch are a trading nation instead of a producing one.

But I agree, the way it is now is in my opinion the second best solution.

Keep up the good work!

[jsw363]

Militaristic - Expansionist : Mongols
Militaristic - Religious : Turks
Militaristic - Scientific : Khmer
Militaristic - Industrious : Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial : Vikings
Expansionist - Religious :Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific : Mayans
Expansionist - Industrious : Celts
Expansionist - Commercial : Portuguese
Religious - Scientific : Arabs
Religious - Industrious : Polish
Religious - Commercial : Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious : Koreans, Incas
Scientific - Commercial : Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial : Dutch

Here is my proposal for the CSA's. I don't especially like the Maya traits, but I guess that's the way it has to be. I don't see them as expansionist; I would prefer Commecial-Scientific. They never established a presence beyond the Yucatan and didnt' conquer many of the other minor tribes in thier region, so I don't think you could classify them as expansionist.

[Stefu]

Hmm. We could do a little switcheroo with special abilities of Turks, Ethiopians and Poles to get Mil - Ind Poles, and we'd get this (I also switched Dutch and Phoenicians):

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Ethiopians, Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Turks
Militaristic - Industrious Poles
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians