Stop the America-bashing!

[Beren]

Originally posted by ~Vodka~
OK, I tryed to be reasonable. I tryed to use diplomacy but... I know why you "flame" us Beren. Its because you Germans don't have any more jews to "flame" (meaning: burn in an oven). Dolphin, you are the most arrogant son of a b*tch in this. You act like you are the smartest mother f*cker.

You f*ckers wanna get in a bash war, lets go. Got beef?

First of all: I am not German.
Secondly: I don't want you all dead. I just think you have an attitude problem.
Thirdly: I think that Dolphins can be terribly smart. This dolphin you are talking about, for instance, I think it outclasses you.
Fourthly: I am sorry six million jews got murdered, but how does that help your point. I am just trying to prevent the death of too many civilian casualties in Afghanistan (a bit late) and the death of too many Palistines.
Fifthly: It seems you're the one who's more like a nazi. You immediately want to fight.
Sixthly: You prove my point, by having this attitude. You are one of many who try to turn my point in to something it's not.

[Beren]

Re: I REALLY hate to do this, but....

Originally posted by lorddread
Slavery is not an American invention.

Slaverly is not an European invention either.

I am sorry about the slaves my greatgreatgrandfather brought to your countries.

[Serb]

Re: WWII for the Record

Originally posted by lorddread



Once again we need to step back and take a clean look at history.

WTF?
You are a teacher of history? I guess a teacher of an American version of history.

For the Record:
1. At the start of WWII, Russia's airforce ranked BEHIND Italy. The planes were old WWI design. Stalin fired the head of aircraft design and replaced it by the 2 men who would become famous with the MIG designs.

Ranked by whom? By bullsh!ters?
I suppose you believe that USA had much more powerful and modern army then USSR before WW2?
Of course 100 000 of your troops was no match for our 3 billions, of course your 500 tanks were no match for our 24000, I don’t know how much planes you had before the war, but I wonder if more then 12 000. May be your army was equipped by planes of WW1 design; our planes were battle-tested in Spain and in Manchuria.

2. The largest tank battle was fought at Kursk.

Brilliant knowledge!
Kursk is the name for entire campaign. The battle near Prohorovka was one of the battles of this campaign. It was the largest tank battle of WW2, thousands of tanks fought against each other on one battlefield.

3. When the T-34 / 85 came into production it was the best ALLIED tank. The Tiger and Panthers were a match for it.

Are you blind? I said- “btw, T-34 is best tank of WW2 in its class”
Btw, T-34 first T-34 was built in 1939 and put in mass production in 1940.
In June 1941 we have 967 of them, it is almost twice more then entire American tank forces of that times ( in July 1940 USA had 500 tanks, most of US tanks were obsolete). We also have 12000 of T-26, 8300 of BT and few thousand tanks of other models. We also had 501 of KV-1 tanks- the most thickly armored tank of the world in those times.
Tigers and Panthers were much heavier then T-34 (and btw were put in mass production much later then T-34). It’s not right to compare T-34 and Tiger. Tigers and Panthers should be compared with other heavy tanks like JS or KV for example.

4. The IS-2 or Joseph Stalin tank was big but not the biggest of the war, that record belonged to the Mouse (100 tons) which was so big that it had to be used as a pillbox because it destroyed roads and couldn't move through fields.

I’ve never said that JS is the biggest tank. I was trying to say that we had heavy tanks like Tigers too, but tanks like KV or JS were rare and expensive (as well as their German equivalents).

5. While Gudarian may have gone to school in Russia, the tactics he used were based on General Sherman (US Civil War fame) and modified for modern armor and vehicles.

Very interesting theory, where did you get this? May be you smoked wrong stuff lately? Gudarian based his tactic on experience of almost 100 years old tactic? You should stop smoking whatever you smoke.
In Early 30s SU had the largest tank forces in the world with superior tactics. First German tanks were constructed in SU, Gudarian and other German generals studied Soviet tank tactics in Soviet military academies. Our problem was that while Gudarian returned to Germany he started to advance, to improve those tactics, while our tank’s tactics stagnated because its authors were killed during Stalin’s purges.

6. The planes and parts for much of the Russian military came from Britian and the US.

For much? For small, for tiny part of Soviet airforces.
Why you just didn't said that Soviet tank forces consisted of Shermans, Soviet Air forces consisted of Air Cobras and every Soviet soldier was equipped with Thompson-gun? BS.

Also for the record, while everyone (men and women) fought in Russia, they also killed a lot of their own people. Stalin (like Hitler) got too involved in the war. Hence the debacle at Stalingrad.

Debacle at Stalingrad?
During only one such “debacle” Red army done much, much more harm to Nazi forces then Americans done during entire war. More then 1,5 billions on nazi soldiers were destroyed during only one such “debacle”.

[lorddread]

It must be in the water

Originally posted by Beren


Look, I must be stupid: what terrorism does Iran support?

If you are reffering to helping the Palestinines I can go for that. (What I think is, BTW, an understandable decission.) But there is no evidence at all for any other support for terror.

Pot is legal in Holland isn't it? However you are smoking crack which isn't!

"Iran remained the most active state sponsor of terrorism in 2000. It provided increasing support to numerous terrorist groups, including the Lebanese Hizballah, HAMAS, and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ), which seek to undermine the Middle East peace negotiations through the use of terrorism.

Its Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS) continued to be involved in the planning and the execution of terrorist acts and continued to support a variety of groups that use terrorism to pursue their goals.

Iran's involvement in terrorist-related activities remained focused on support for groups opposed to Israel and peace between Israel and its neighbors. Statements by Iran's leaders demonstrated Iran's unrelenting hostility to Israel. Supreme Leader Khamenei continued to refer to Israel as a "cancerous tumor" that must be removed; President Khatami, labeling Israel an "illegal entity," called for sanctions against Israel during the intifadah; and Expediency Council Secretary Rezai said, "Iran will continue its campaign against Zionism until Israel is completely eradicated." Iran has long provided Lebanese Hizballah and the Palestinian rejectionist groups--notably HAMAS, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, and Ahmad Jibril's PFLP-GC--with varying amounts of funding, safehaven, training, and weapons. This activity continued at its already high levels following the Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May and during the intifadah in the fall. Iran continued to encourage Hizballah and the Palestinian groups to coordinate their planning and to escalate their activities against Israel. Iran also provided a lower level of support--including funding, training, and logistics assistance--to extremist groups in the Gulf, Africa, Turkey, and Central Asia." (Overview of State Sponsored Terrorsism 2000)

I have to get a teachers liscence here in the states cause obviously Holland's teachers suck!

Beren, I bet you didn't know that Hezbolla and Hamas weren't created to help the Palestinians did you. Both of these have origins in the infighting between the various sects of Islam. The Palestians are just a good excuse to continue their existance.

Oh and Beren, let me further educate you in the ways of the world. Yassar, the leader of the PLO (another Iranian sponsored terror group) was offered 93% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza strip 3 years ago. To make up for the 7% that Israel wanted to control for its people, it offered 7% of its land in return. Yassar said no. He then announced to the world that he wanted ISrael to be destroyed. He is the reason the Palestinians are suffering.

Oh, and by the way Beren, how is that little thing going on in your country about your soldiers allowing genocide and mass exterminations to happen before their eyes in an UN Safe Zone?

Do we wish to discuss this?

Let me know when you wish to have another lesson in the REAL world!


KATN

[Serb]

Originally posted by sargon2
Serb is just holding up his country and its history, and in many points I think he is right.

Thank's for support. This is exactly what I've trying to do- to defend my country and it's history.

To you it is anti-american or even directly spoken terroristic, at least supporting terrorism. Let's bomb Russia for Serbs posts.

It's funny and it's sad at the same time. After the ultimatum of their president-" If you are not with us, then you are against us", after such words, they may count everyone who don't obbey to them as an enemy.

After hearing all this WWII and Soviet Union ranting from Serb and other anti-U.S. B/S, I think the tide has turned in this thread. Go, USA!

siredgar,

I'm not a anti-US. ( well, may be a little)
I don't like US foreign policy, I don't like US hypocrisy and I hate when I hear- "We saved your asses", but I don't hate Americans as people.
As for original topic of this thread, It's absolutely clear for me that USA must be in the Civ3. It worth to be in, no less then any other countries, the rest of the debate is simple spam. USA is no worse then other nations, but no better, every country has glorious and shame pages of it's history. Yes, you are a little younger then others, but as you noticed in compare with ancient Egypt ot China other countries are babies too. As for culture, because you are relatively young, the culture is young too. If today in your culture we may find some things taken from other cultures, then tommorow (if not today already) it will be entierly new one.
So, USA should be in, without it game will be silly.

So, you may consider my trolling as payback to some Americans who think that Russians are evil commie- alcoholics.

[siredgar]

When it comes time to pay reparations to African Americans for slavery, I think the Europeans should flip the bill. =) I don't think you'll mind since you are so much more just and generous than we are, right?

[CRAZY]

I am not european I am canadian. I also noticed no one has mentioned the USA's late entry into the war. How the US stole all the German science and tech to get to the top.

I don't mind this, I benifit from it myself living here in Canada but I what I do mind is the American aggorance showed by bush. Who is this guy? I can't believe you people elected him and follow him. He is one of the most offending people I have ever heard speak.

Every word that comes out of his mouth is offending. He has a public school playground type of attitude and the US is just eating it up. I feel terrible for all the poeple lost on Sept 11th but what I am afraid of is what is going to happen next. It was US foreign policy that caused that to happen and this foreign policy is only getting worse not better. I am not by anymeans saying these terroists are the good guys but all Bush is doing is pooring gas on a fire! What do you expect to happen?

[siredgar]

Bush is an idiot. I apologize to the rest of the world on behalf of all Americans who feel the same way. I also agree that his rhetoric is childish and the melodramatics need to stop. Anyhow, I told you to blame those stupid and corrupt Floridians.

But the U.S. did not "steal" German science and technology. Many of the German scientists were Jewish and they were not allowed to emigrate to other European countries. Nor did they feel welcome there. The U.S. did not exactly have a red carpet out for any immigrants either because we were just coming out of the Great Depression. But we still took them in. Anyhow, they chose to come to the U.S. and helped advance our science and technology. But they are only a small part of American ingenuity in progress at the time (that continues today). Maybe if you in Europe weren't so anti-Semitic, then they would have came to you instead.

[SpencerH]

Just thought I'd throw in a few friendly comments

You are a teacher of history? I guess a teacher of an American version of history.

History always depends upon perspective. You dont seem foolish enough to believe that the history of WWII written during the Stalinist and subsequent Soviet era's were free from this effect. Western histories of WWII are also biased but with a greater variety of sources it is possible to extract the "truth".

Dont forget that the chassis design for the T34 (my vote for the best tank of WWII) and subsequent Soviet tanks came from the Christie tank (designed and built in the USA) that was sold to the Soviets because the US didnt want it.

Debacle at Stalingrad?
During only one such “debacle” Red army done much, much more harm to Nazi forces then Americans done during entire war. More then 1,5 billions on nazi soldiers were destroyed during only one such “debacle”.

I believe debacle was used here in the description of the battles at Stalingrad from the German perspective (ie the disaster for the German forces that could have been avoided to some extent if they had been allowed to retreat).

Very interesting theory, where did you get this? May be you smoked wrong stuff lately? Gudarian based his tactic on experience of almost 100 years old tactic? You should stop smoking whatever you smoke.

Sun Tsu's "Art of War" is thousands of years old and is still relevant.

Gudarian and other German generals studied Soviet tank tactics in Soviet military academies

While Heinz Guderian did visit the tank training facilities in Kazan, its pretty clear that the works of Captain B.H. Liddell Hart and Major-General J.F.C. Fuller were the catalyst for Guderian's ideas on tank warfare.

Thank's for support. This is exactly what I've trying to do- to defend my country and it's history.

And thats what the Americans (and myself) are doing too!

It's funny and it's sad at the same time. After the ultimatum of their president-" If you are not with us, then you are against us", after such words, they may count everyone who don't obbey to them as an enemy.

They are not an ultimatum, simply a statement of our position. There are too many countries that are fence sitters. Think about this, why should America continue to support countries that are not our allies "friends"?

I don't like US foreign policy, I don't like US hypocrisy and I hate when I hear- "We saved your asses", but I don't hate Americans as people.

What policies and hypocrisies would these be exactly? As for American rhetoric with respect to WWII, what about European rhetoric with respect to America in general?

I'm not a anti-US. ( well, may be a little)

[CRAZY]

I will say it again I am a Canadian not a European.

Anyway the policies that surpress cultures that don't exzactly fit into the US's big scheme of things. The foreign policy that says that you are either with us or against us!

This is a very dramatic statment. I am sure many countries don't agree with what happened but at the same time do not support the States response to the situation. Does this mean they are against them?

This is the Bush administratoins way to get public opinion on thier side. Surpression can happen in many ways and believe it or not many of the american people are being surpressed and they don't even know it! All these slick media campigns and cool speaches! Its just a little bit sneaker then the old fashion way! Its not only the american people but others as well. The pathetic thing is no one can really do anything! Only the americans that is and they are all to sleepy to realize it! I take that back not all but obviously a big majority!

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by CRAZY
I am not european I am canadian.

It was US foreign policy that caused that to happen and this foreign policy is only getting worse not better. I am not by anymeans saying these terroists are the good guys but all Bush is doing is pooring gas on a fire! What do you expect to happen?

I havent lived in Canada for about 15 years, but I am stunned by some of the anti-American comments and the lack of support for America after 9/11 that I have heard from Canadians. From what I've heard lately Canada appears to have lost the values that made it a great place to live and it is becoming a nation of bleeding heart fence sitters. I can only hope that I've been misinformed by the Canadian news that I've managed to see and by the comments made by people such as you. I know there are many other Canadians besides you on this forum, hopefully some more of them will comment.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by siredgar
Bush is an idiot. I apologize to the rest of the world on behalf of all Americans who feel the same way. I also agree that his rhetoric is childish and the melodramatics need to stop. Anyhow, I told you to blame those stupid and corrupt Floridians.

But the U.S. did not "steal" German science and technology. Many of the German scientists were Jewish and they were not allowed to emigrate to other European countries. Nor did they feel welcome there. The U.S. did not exactly have a red carpet out for any immigrants either because we were just coming out of the Great Depression. But we still took them in. Anyhow, they chose to come to the U.S. and helped advance our science and technology. But they are only a small part of American ingenuity in progress at the time (that continues today). Maybe if you in Europe weren't so anti-Semitic, then they would have came to you instead.

Your comments and knowledge of history speak for themselves.

[CRAZY]

I havent lived in Canada for about 15 years, but I am stunned by some of the anti-American comments and the lack of support for America after 9/11 that I have heard from Canadians. From what I've heard lately Canada appears to have lost the values that made it a great place to live and it is becoming a nation of bleeding heart fence sitters.

okay to address this!!!

I feel very very very terrible for the american people! Very terrible you have our support for the general population of the US. Many canadians also died at the WTC. But you have to look at a situation and address what has happened!!

Put it this way... you see this kid going around the school yard pushing everyone around not caring what others think, just a general bully, will you be surpriesed when some little nerd he has beat up finds some way to get back at him? Who do you feel sorry for? As a friend to the bully you feel empatetic toward his pain but you also might remind him it was his attitude in the first place that brought it on himself and if he didnt' want it to happen again he should change, altho if it does happen again as a friend you will be there to help him.

I am sure you have been in a similar life situation!! Support from your parents is unconditional but don't be surpriesed when they let you know when you are being an ass!!

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by CRAZY

Put it this way... you see this kid going around the school yard pushing everyone around not caring what others think, just a general bully, will you be surpriesed when some little nerd he has beat up finds some way to get back at him? Who do you feel sorry for?

There has been a lack of coherent policies with respect to the Middle East (and other countries) over several decades but just who is it America is pushing around?

[CRAZY]

dude I am not sure about you!! are you trying to argue for the sake of arguing? You admit that the policies are bad but then you ask who it is that you are pushing around? I am not here to answer things you already know just for the sake of arguing!!

If you truly do not know then I will say its is pretty much most of the world that the US is pushing around! Yes even us here in Canada. All I have to say is softwood! Ask the rest of the world about steel and then ask those in the middle east about the american policies there!!!

Biggest promoters of free trade yet smacking down tarrifs and taxes when it starts to affect them in a bad way. Its a 1 way street when dealing with the US. Everyone is starting to realize this and are getting very angry. Hence all the anti americanism around the world, even within ally countries such as here in Canada.

As far any other questions you have I am here to talk and pass information. If you bring a good point I will accept it, I change my mind in the light of information. but I am not here to answer questions just for the sake of arguing!! its stupid. In fact I am not here to argue at all! If you realize something don't make people spell it out for you anyway. Its a waste of everyones time!