Stop the America-bashing!

[Serb]

Originally posted by jasev


That's the point. Do you know who will recieve that money? I'll state a theory: the companies that will design and buid the missile defense system gave a huge amount of money to G.W. Bush presidential campaign.

Looks like you found the first admirer of your theory. It’s me. I’ve also thought that this is the main reason for their actions.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Willem
Vietnam wasn't an invasion. They were invited by the South Vietnam government to help them in their civil war. Before you start bashing the US for rewriting history, I'd suggest you take a look at some of the misinformation your government has passed out. I suspect they're just as much at fault as the US. Propoganda has no borders, it's a tool used by all governments. And I'm sorry to say, the SU was notorious for this.

Willem,
Well you see, you do not count Vietnam is an invasion, on the other hand I suppose you sure that Afghanistan was an invasion. It is absolutely the same events. SU governments were also asked by Afghanistan’s government to help them in their civil war. In both cases it was intervention to preserve friendly government. But I’m agree with you propaganda really has no borders.

Sorry, I misunderstood. So what was your point then?

Well, if you interested you may read my version.
First of all, it is not a secret that in Vietnam USSR supplied North with weapons and military instructors. When Americans left Vietnam there was installed government friendly to USSR. Now about Afghanistan, it was the mirror situation. USA supplied Afghan rebels who fought against USSR. When soviet army left Afghanistan, (btw not because of military defeat but because Gorbatchev has come to power and all this perestroika and other stuff started, the political situation has changed) in Afghanistan was formed coalition government leads by president Nagibula (he was a man of Kremlin). This government consists of 33%- Nagibula’s mens (former, friendly to soviets government), 33% -former rebels (mudjaideen) and 33% were people of former king of Afghanistan. This government does not lived long, after a year or two it was overthrown and president Nagibula was brutally murdered, SU did not support him in hard times (I do not mean military operation, Gorbatchev refused even to sell fuel for Nagibula’s tanks, I suppose it calls a betrayal.) Later Taliban has come to power.
So, when we left Afghanistan America actually do not “has every opportunity of staying behind and helping the Afghans rebuild their country”, because Afghanistan was ruled by Nagibula- Kremlin’s men. Only when his government was overthrown they have such opportunity. Btw, there was almost nothing to rebuild. The major part of Afghan industry and infrastructure was build by Russians in times of occupation as gift from all soviet people to Afghan brothers. Should I say about reasons why USA was so passive in fate of his former ally? Why USA does not tried to establish democratic government after Nagibula’s fall? Well, I have two versions. The first is: the USA government was interested that Russia has so dangerous and aggressive neighbor as Afghanistan under Taliban’s rule. All this years we have to maintain contingent in Tajikistan to prevent Taliban’s border attacks. The second is: may be US thought that it is possible to control Taliban. If you find my versions too unbelievable, then I should remind that Osama ben Laden was sponsored by CIA during war vs. USSR. CIA seriously thought that it can control such monster and supported him with money and weapons, but when war vs. SU was over ben Laden turned against his masters.
This is only my opinion, may be you have another explanation why they do not installed a government friendly to US, after USSR left Afghanistan and regime of Nagibula was fall.

[jasev]

Perfect, Serb. That was almost exactly what I tried to say. It looks that your english is quite better than mine. Maybe you had good teacher who helped you with the irregular verbs

Just a thing: the soviet army left afghanistan because they were unable to defeat the rebels (it looks like a stalemate) and were suffering many losses. No country can't maintain a war that can't be won, so the retreat was the most logical option. Not to mention that the public opinion was against the war.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb

Well you see, you do not count Vietnam is an invasion, on the other hand I suppose you sure that Afghanistan was an invasion. It is absolutely the same events. SU governments were also asked by Afghanistan’s government to help them in their civil war. In both cases it was intervention to preserve friendly government.

Yes I'm fully aware that the SU was invited by the Afghan government of the time. I don't recall saying that they weren't. In almost every way, it was Russia's version of Vietnam. Except they were fighting in hills, not jungles.

So, when we left Afghanistan America actually do not “has every opportunity of staying behind and helping the Afghans rebuild their country”, because Afghanistan was ruled by Nagibula- Kremlin’s men.

Well that I wasn't aware of. I was assuming that the government that took power afterwards would be sympathetic to the US for assisting them. I suppose it wouldn't make very much sense for the US to help a government still sympathetic to their enemy.

Should I say about reasons why USA was so passive in fate of his former ally? Why USA does not tried to establish democratic government after Nagibula’s fall? Well, I have to versions. The first is: the USA government was interested that Russia has so dangerous and aggressive neighbor as Afghanistan under Taliban’s rule. All this years we have to maintain contingent in Tajikistan to prevent Taliban’s border attacks. The second is: may be US thought that it is possible to control Taliban. If you find my versions too unbelievable, then I should remind that Osama ben Laden was sponsored by CIA during war vs. USSR. CIA seriously thought that it can control such monster and supported him with money and weapons, but when war vs. SU was over ben Laden turned against his masters.
This is only my opinion, may be you have another explanation why they do not installed a government friendly to US, after USSR left Afghanistan and regime of Nagibula was fall.

Well you might be right, but my opinion is that they no longer cared. The SU was crumbling, they had won. There was no need for them to involve themselves since it was no longer of any strategic importance for them to do so. The US may preach about Democracy and freedom but they only put their money where their mouth is when it serves some purpose. Heaven forbid they should get involved strictly out of principle! It sounds to me that the whole world abandoned Afghanistan, not just the US. Though I can understand that, as a former enemy, Russia couldn't have done very much at the time.

[Serb]

Originally posted by jasev
Perfect, Serb. That was almost exactly what I tried to say. It looks that your english is quite better than mine. Maybe you had good teacher who helped you with the irregular verbs

Just a thing: the soviet army left afghanistan because they were unable to defeat the rebels (it looks like a stalemate) and were suffering many losses. No country can't maintain a war that can't be won, so the retreat was the most logical option. Not to mention that the public opinion was against the war.

Don’t make me laugh I know my English is terrible.

Yes, I agree that none country is able to maintain a war that cannot be win; fighting against partisans in mountainous country like Afghanistan is very complicated task. I think that sending troops to Afghanistan was a mistake, but our casualties was not huge, during ten years of war we’ve lost 14 500 men KIA in compare with American casualties in Vietnam it is not very much. Yes, the situation was looks like stalemate, but since 1985 it was looks like we’ve started to win slightly (only slightly) and when Afghan government was informed that soviet army is gone leave their country they thought that it is a joke, they were addicted to presence of soviet army and do not know what could happen to them if soviets leave. And one more thing, the SU government never was concerned about public opinion, an anti-war demonstrations and actions of protest like in USA in times of war in Vietnam are never happens in SU. I suppose Gorbachev make decision to left Afghanistan by political reasons (may be to show to the rest of the world that he is absolutely new type of soviet leader, that he want to correct the mistakes of previous leaders, but most likely he make this decision because we have too many internal problems and he thought that its time to stop wasting time and money in Afghanistan), theoretically we was able to continue this campaign no less than few years. But I think it was right decision; it is impossible to fight constantly against partisans, it is impossible to win. We shouldn’t come to Afghanistan, well it is better to leave later then to leave never.
P.S. I am just curios, is the Russian Empire survive the attack of mighty Spanish army in your Civ2 game?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Willem


Yes I'm fully aware that the SU was invited by the Afghan government of the time. I don't recall saying that they weren't. In almost every way, it was Russia's version of Vietnam. Except they were fighting in hills, not jungles.

Sorry, I’ve actually do not mean you, we’ve talked about propaganda remember? I’ve just wanted to say that it is popular view created by propaganda (for example by films like Rambo 3). And I am not bashing Americans for this; I realize that soviet propaganda do the same, with only difference that it make propaganda within own country while Americans do it worldwide

Well you might be right, but my opinion is that they no longer cared. The SU was crumbling, they had won. There was no need for them to involve themselves since it was no longer of any strategic importance for them to do so. The US may preach about Democracy and freedom but they only put their money where their mouth is when it serves some purpose.

Of course they do nothing without profit, but I don’t think that they was no longer cared. You see, Afghanistan always have big strategic importance because of its geographical position in this region. It is always was a welcome target for conquerors, even mighty Britain Empire tried to conquer it. But Afghanistan have strategic importance not only because its position, by natural resources it is very, very rich country. Do you notice how many countries want to be a friend of Afghanistan now? I can assure you USA has, and have now its national interests in this country.

I suppose it wouldn't make very much sense for the US to help a government still sympathetic to their enemy.

That’s why the government of Nagibula was overthrown. For USA he was unwelcome as the leader of Afghanistan, he was unwelcome because he sympathize to SU. I am really sorry about what happen to him, he was hanged on the main square of Kabul. I don’t think that he deserved such fate. He was very educated men and brilliant politician. While soviet army leaved Afghanistan, he has every opportunity to create his own government, but he chooses another way. As I said earlier he formed a coalition government, on 1/3 it consisted of his allies, on another 1/3 his former enemies- mudjaideen, and last 1/3 was the former king men’s. Nagibula make attempt to unite country, and actually he has progress on it. After he created a coalition of former enemies, civil war was stopped. Yes, he sympathized to SU, but only sympathized nothing more. After creation of coalition government Moscow lost any influence on Afghanistan. But Nagibula was the unwelcome figure for too many people. I am sure that CIA was involved in the beginning of new civil war in Afghanistan. About year ago I saw interview with former high official of Pakistan intelligence. And he said something like this- “ yes, president Nagibula’s was unwelcome for us (Pakistan and USA) and we’ve done everything to remove him.” CIA and Pakistan intelligence put bet on the Taliban, when they realized that they make wrong bet and they cannot control the Taliban it was too late. I suppose they realize now that it was horrible mistake.

It sounds to me that the whole world abandoned Afghanistan, not just the US. Though I can understand that, as a former enemy, Russia couldn't have done very much at the time.

That’s true, the whole world abandoned Afghanistan. But actually Russia was the only country that did not. After soviet army left Afghanistan Afghans stop to treat us as enemies. Two years ago we’ve started military support of Northern Alliance in their war against Taliban. We’ve sent them tanks, weapons, ammunition, military instructors; we share intelligence data and gave them consultations (btw, the major offence of Northern Alliance on Taliban was started after 3 days after big delegation of Northern Alliance commanders was meet in Tajikistan with delegation of Russian commanders leads by chief of HQ of Russian army). It was covert support because UN put an embargo on all trades with Afghanistan. What for we done this? It was in accordance with our national interests to do so. We was known very well what a terrorism is, the Taliban was the major sponsor of Chechen terrorists who blows up houses with hundreds of people within in Moscow, who steal people for ransom and slavery. And Taliban by itself threaten to our southern border, we have to maintain contingent on Tajik- Afghan border. So, we were interested to help Northern alliance. If you remember about year ago it was even talks on TV news that Russia may makes an air strikes to terrorists bases located on Afghanistan territory. It is sad that USA realized the real danger of terrorism only after September. Mr.Putin tried to convinced US administration to make common measures against Taliban long time ago since president Clinton was in charge. But all his proposals were denied.
Btw, today in Moscow arrived the defense minister of Afghanistan he meets with our defense minister. Their talks about further military cooperation between our countries, the most part of Afghan army equipped with soviet/russian design weapons we have huge field for cooperation on this subject. And one more thing, as I’ve said earlier major part of Afghan infrastructure (power plants, factories etc) was build by Russians with use of russian technologies, so rebuilding of this objects it is another huge field for cooperation between our countries.
So, as you may see Russians is one of the closest friends of Afghan people now.

[Willem]

Serb:

Well thanks for sharing that information with me. It's always interesting being able to see the other side of the story. As you said, the US media certainly tends to portray Russia as the bad guy. So sometimes it's hard to get at the truth.

[Serb]

You are welcome.
The truth may be found only when you know both sides of the story. I am happy that I’ve describe to you our version of events, this is all I’ve wanted to do. The choices are yours.

[Willem]

So I'm curious, why is Russia trying so hard to hang on to Chechnya? When the SU fell, so many of the republics were just left alone to go their own way. Why not Chechnya as well?

[Serb]

Well, when SU collapsed we do not has any problems with Chehnya it was absolutly clear for all that it is part of Russia. Our problems started later, when Chehen terrorists takes support from their 'brothers' from Afghanistan, and from terroristic organizations from other countries.
You see, SU was consisted of 15 republics: Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan etc. Chehnya was not one of them it is small , very small part of Russia. The Russian Federation consist of 89 subjects of federation and Chehnya is one of them. If we let them go whole Russian Federation may disintegrate like SU. Btw, Chehnya was free from Moscow's rule for the period of time since 1996 until 1999. While 'de juro' it remains one of the subjects of Russian Federation, 'de fucto' it was not. For the period of that time there were no any russian institutes of powers on that terriotory, they do not live upon our laws, they were not controled by federal center- Moscow, they do not pay taxes and etc. They were free to do what they want, and they establish anarchy as I call it, they establish the same state as it was in Afghanistan durring Taliban's rule, they lived in accordance with so called 'Shariat rule'- codex of very brutal, unhuman laws used by Muslim contries in medival's times (with cutt off hands as punishment for steal, for example). During this three years Chechnya become a 'foreign office of Taliban', in fact we has our own Afghanistan on our own territory. Chechnya become home for terrorists and villians of all kinds from all around the world, they used Chehnya as base for atacks on Russia, Their main bussines was to steal people for ransom and for using their victims as slaves. They steal people from cities in any corners of Russia and bring them to Chehnya, they make huge numbers of terroristic acts, the most horrible was destruction af few civilian houses in Moscow. Hundreds of people were killed, while this people peacefully sleaping in they homes, terrorists blows up buildings and when buildings collapsed its buried those people within ruins, only few surrvived those devastations. Only for those crimes we have moral right to destroy the bustards who did this. But our pation was over when Chehen terrorist launch an invasion in Dagestan, they wanted to capture more of Russian territory. It was the limit break. President Putin launched a massive counter terroristic operation, this time war against terrorists was sucsesful, constitutional order was established in Chehnya, and people return to peaceful life. All democratical, constitutional institutions of powers (administration, courts, right to vote, right to be elected and etc) returned to Chehen land.

[Willem]

Thanks again for the info. For the longest time the media here was portraying Chechnya in the same light as the other republics, like Ukraine etc. They made it out as if the Chechnyan people were only striving for their own government, just like the rest. But that was a long time ago, now they don't even mention it much. I think the Western attitude changed after that bombing that you spoke of. The feeling had changed and the media no longer portrayed them as freedom fighters, which they did before. Now they say very little.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Willem
Thanks again for the info. For the longest time the media here was portraying Chechnya in the same light as the other republics, like Ukraine etc. They made it out as if the Chechnyan people were only striving for their own government, just like the rest. But that was a long time ago, now they don't even mention it much. I think the Western attitude changed after that bombing that you spoke of. The feeling had changed and the media no longer portrayed them as freedom fighters, which they did before. Now they say very little.

You are welcome.
I think someone was very, very interested that Western mass media portrayed Chehen terrorist as freedom fighters. I am glad if things changed now.

[jasev]

REally interesting, Serb. Now we know the russian point of view, so I wish to hear the chechenyan point of view.

P.S: Of course Russia survived: I always leave a city in peace to be able to build the SpaceShip.

[Serb]

I do not think that Chechen point of view is different. I suppose terrorists may have different point of view. But its not the same things. Terrorist has no nationalities, and I don’t think that they post on Civ’s forums.

P.S. Did Russians was unable to launch Gagarin earlier that Spanish Empire? No? What a shame for us…Oh no, I don’t know how I will survive such disgrace.

[jasev]

Of course terrorism has nationalities. Most times it is their only leit motiv. But the question is:

The trouble in Chechenya is really a terrorism problem? We have a terrorism problem in Basque Country and we don't use army helicopters and tanks to solve it (perhaps we should try it, at this moment we're not winning). You typed they are terrorists, but I'm sure they have a different point of view.

You wrote they're terrorists, and maybe you're right. But we haven't read the other side of the story, so forgive me if I still have doubts.