Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part1)

[Caesar2760]

I'm certainly not saying that it would be a good unit. However, the Mongols were MAGNIFICENT militarily, at least for a while. But they fell behind technologically, at least as far as anything but military technology was concerned, and just couldn't hold together. And while horses are of course necessary I don't see iron being that important. Besides, if you look at the terrain inhabited by the Mongols, just how much production could there have been? But even with such low production, they still managed to build huge armies. I guess that's why I made my suggestion. It seemed that they had everything else so far against them, that their expansion can only be explained by a timely and impressive UU.

[Bad Ax]

Spanish:
Consider adding Cristobal Colon (I believe this is the proper name) as a leader. Though not originally Spanish, he did serve to spark their greatest expansion. The shunned government should definitely be democracy. Sorry, my Spanish friends. The conquistador should be a mounted unit w/ 2 movement points, as the horses the Spanish rode were a significant part of the fear they created in the local populace. I guess it should replace the musketman, even though it's more mobile. However, it should upgrade to cavalry. This should help balance the unit, as the Spanish will be using a weaker defensive unit in the early days of gunpowder, and will have to rebuild their defense through riflemen after nationalism.

Mongols:
I'm tempted to ask that you make them favor despotism. Other than that, I think this one looks great.

Arabs:
The capital should probably be Mecca anyway, though Baghdad was really the more influential city in a commercial sense. I like the mamelukes, but I think you should require iron (they were armed with steel) instead of horses (they rode camels). I'm not certain that Arabs should shun democracy, as there are a couple of working examples of such governments. I suggest instead that they shun Communism, since the enforced secularism and egalitarianism of such governments is VERY incompatible with known Arab religious and commercial attitudes. Favoring Monarchy seems fine to me. You might wish to add Saud as a leader.

Incas:
I'm as lost as you are for the unique unit. I do seem to recall, however, that the Incas had some excellent runners who served as messengers. As such, a 1/1/2 warrior unit might be more appropriate. I think the Inca should favor Monarchy over Communism, although recent history involving their descendants might suggest otherwise. I'm also not sure about their characteristics... perhaps they should be commercial instead of expansionist?

That's all that's in my head right now.

[molly bloom]

Further thoughts re:Mameluke unit; I don't feel it adequately represents Arab civilization, in part because it was a unit associated with just one part of the Arab world, Egypt, and also because it was drawn mainly from a non-Arab slave group. The camel unit, however, would not only be representative of the initial Arab conquest, but would also be in line with the Reconquest of the Hejaz,and the modern era reclamation of the Ottoman provinces in Greater Arabia and the Levant. Of course it would also be a useful unit for any Civ operating in dryer landscapes- perhaps a bonus movement in deserts or dryer climes?

As for the conquistador: in terms of military history this just doesn't feature. The Spanish tercio was the unit that won decisive battles in Europe for Spain, such as Pavia:

"Of all the fighting men in Europe, the quintessential soldier was Spanish. The Spanish tercio, a large infantry "regiment" (the word is used loosely in this time period) formed the backbone of the most successful army in the world. It contained pikes, some sword-and-buckler men (at least earlier in the century), and light firearms organized under captains and colonels. Spain had an efficient organization for recruiting from its own provinces and keeping these units "topped up." The endless campaigns in Italy and the Low Countries made them formidable troops, with high confidence and esprit de corps. And at the end of the century, Maurice of Nassau, a landmark figure in military history, would build on this foundation and the inspiration of classical Rome to create the beginnings of modern, infantry-based military drill and discipline. "

https://www.lepg.org/warfare.htm

Other than the personal qualities of Cortes or Pizarro, the conquistador is a conflation and concoction of a romantic view of history. They could not have achieved so much without the aid of indigenous enemies of the Mixteca and the Inca, and of course those potent generals, smallpox and measles.

[Stefu]

Well, there's one thing for choosing conquistador over tercio - people know what conquistadors were. I think that we should use the obvious guiding principle of Firaxis, ie. leaders and UUs people are likely to know beforehand.

[Jay Bee]

This has been debated before. Picking Conquistador as the Spanish UU is to perpetuate an absurd stereotype. If something, Conquistador is a military leader. But hey, we are tired of pointing this out, so go ahead guys....

About shunning Democracy, while it's true the Spanish have not precisely championed at that, it is obvious that the shunned gov't should be Communism. Let's not forget that the Courts of Castile (early XII century) was one of the first (if not the very first) truly democratic parliament to ever function in Europe. A pity it had such a short life
On the other hand, anti-Communism has been the perennial obsession and driving force of Spanish policies for more than 100 years. Communism never had a chance to succeed in Spain.

[Dr. Nick]

And, yeah, go with the Tercios... so the public is ignorant? Then maybe the public will learn something. If you put in the conquistador as a unit you are but promoting ignorance and misconceptions.

Tercios! Tercios! Tercios!

[Caesar2760]

But since there is no smallpox unit, don't we need something to explain Spain winning? Hmm... smallpox unit...

[Bad Ax]

I suppose it's too bad that the designers took out the disease espionage mission... Too bad there's no culture shock event (in the same vein as a golden age) either...

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Caesar2760
But since there is no smallpox unit, don't we need something to explain Spain winning? Hmm... smallpox unit...

Tercios...

[Wernazuma III]

Oh oh, spanish crowd rides in, warlike with their tiny steppe-horses and composite bows... .

Welcome, I awaited you

As for govs: I also tend to stay with Communism.
As for the Tercios/Conquistador problem:
I wouldn't call it "ignorance" if we keep the Conquistadors, it's not because I don't see your argument. But UUs should possibly carry an association possibility and, call it ignorant if you wish, the Tercio is no really a popular unit...
Most people don't care if the soldiers in the crowd of Conquistadors were actually "Tercios". So please live with it, the Conquistadors for most people are representative for the phenomenon of the conquests in the New World. Putting it a bit weird: The Conquistador should give a feeling for tercios, the native allies, smallpox, the confused reaction of the natives, etc. Tercios simply don't give that feeling. But go on with the dispute, I'm generally not a stubborn person who doesn't listen.

molly: I'll again go inside and think about the mameluk, but you're about to convince me

Bad Ax: Again, I have to let you wait until later in the evening, mum's kitchen calls. It's nothing personal, you just happen to have written again the last post I looked at.

[Dr. Nick]

Whaddaya mean, composite bows???

*fires harquebus as werna*

[Jay Bee]

Tiny steppe-horses? Composite bows? What have you been smoking lately?

If you really saw our argument, you would agree that the Tercio, not the Conquistador, should be the Spanish UU. The rest is utter ignorance, like it or not. Those who know have picked the Tercios and given cogent reasons for it. But if the end the prime criterion is popularity, not history, I think you guys should seriously consider the bullfighter.

[Dr. Nick]

Bah! If were going with stereotypes, we should have a redneck hillbilly for the Americans, a drunk vodka drinker for the Russians, a frog waving a white flag for the french and a cook for the Italians.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Bah! If were going with stereotypes, we should have a redneck hillbilly for the Americans, a drunk vodka drinker for the Russians, a frog waving a white flag for the french and a cook for the Italians.

The cook waving a white flag as well

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
The cook waving a white flag as well

A white DISHCLOTH in any case... and if the editor allows monthly time changes, each December the Italians have the option to bombard from their cities with old furniture any hostile units in range.