4 Unique units I'd like to see

[chocoballs]

The F15 for for the US unique is a bit light. I'd have rather seen a unique aircraft carrier. one that has an extremely high defence and greater range.

for the Chinese, i would have preferred a crossbow man. first to invent one. low range, 4 on offence but available right after warrior code.

The Chinese rider represents the fact the the stirrups were invented by the chinese but chinese armies were rarely noted for the blitzkreig style of attack the mongols were famous for. Where are the Mongols? They ruled China for crumb's sake!

As unappealing as this might be, a cool modern unit for the Japanese could be the kamikaze. cheap and expendable, decent air to air offence but can be used as a missile when attacking cities or carriers or when it attacks cities, it destroys the coastal defence only. yeah, that's would work!

I think a cleric that walks around and coverts enemy troops to join the Indians would be a formidable force.

Where are the Spanish conquistadors?!!

What was more dominant, the German Panzer or the German U-Boat? Was the U-Boat THE enemy for the longest time? That would be a killer industrial period unit.

Would a Persian fanatic unit be too unsensitive?

[dexters]

It is kind of difficult to give the Americans a unique unit because of its short history as a nation and the fact that it has never, until recently, had superior military hardware. In worldwar 2, German tanks generally outclassed American ones. It was really material superiority that won the war.

I agree however that in the area of naval superiority, the United States of America's unique unit should be there. It has essentially ruled the seas since World War 2, with American ships outclassing the other two major naval powers of the time, Japan and England. And of course, we all know the devastating toll the US Navy inflicted on the Imperial Japenese Navy.

Coincidentally, PBS is running a show called Warships, and it noted that symbol of American naval power were the massive battleships of the World War 2 era.

Yea, so a special carrier or battleship would have been more appropriate and more useful.

[Sun Zi 36]

Well, I would rather like to see the Russians have MIG-24 than the cossacks. I agree the Chinese needs some other unique unit. I also like the idea of kamikazes, I actually have the kamikaze's as a unit in my own mod pack for civ2. I also would like to see more naval unique units.

[orange]

Re: 4 Unique units I'd like to see

Originally posted by chocoballs
Would a Persian fanatic unit be too unsensitive?

Extremely unsensitive and not accurate. Why do people keep suggesting this?

First of all it's a religious UU not a cultural UU, and this game is about units that represent the technologies of the civ to make a better unit than the one currently being used by the rest of the world.

Second - what does a "fanatic" replace?

Third - Since when are Persians fanatics? If anything it would be an arab UU but it shouldn't be since not all Arabs are fanatics, and on a greater note, not all Islamics are fanatics.

[brandon749]

Originally posted by dexters
It is kind of difficult to give the Americans a unique unit because of its short history as a nation and the fact that it has never, until recently, had superior military hardware. In worldwar 2, German tanks generally outclassed American ones. It was really material superiority that won the war.

I agree however that in the area of naval superiority, the United States of America's unique unit should be there. It has essentially ruled the seas since World War 2, with American ships outclassing the other two major naval powers of the time, Japan and England. And of course, we all know the devastating toll the US Navy inflicted on the Imperial Japenese Navy.

Coincidentally, PBS is running a show called Warships, and it noted that symbol of American naval power were the massive battleships of the World War 2 era.

Yea, so a special carrier or battleship would have been more appropriate and more useful.

No, I would have wanted something like a B-2. That's a UU. The americans have sold/given f-15 to their allies for years! something like a b-2 which is actually unique is more appropriate.

P.S. You're wrong about German tanks outclasing American tanks. At the beginning of the war, yes, Nazi tanks would have blown US tanks to smitherenes but germany and america did not engage land until the final years of teh war when the American sherman and others were the finest on the field.

[Martinus]

Re: 4 Unique units I'd like to see

Sorry, choco, but I disagree with some of your choices:

Originally posted by chocoballs
As unappealing as this might be, a cool modern unit for the Japanese could be the kamikaze. cheap and expendable, decent air to air offence but can be used as a missile when attacking cities or carriers or when it attacks cities, it destroys the coastal defence only. yeah, that's would work!

Kamikaze fighters, however present in the pop culture, were only a minor episode in the Japan outstanding military history, even if you take into account the WWII period. Actually they started to appear only in the late war, when the Japanese cause was already lost - there were no kamikaze at Pearl Harbour btw - however the Hollywood producers would like you to believe otherwise.

Frankly speaking, I find Samurai to be just a perfect Japanese CSU - if anything, it is the one that doesn't need tweaking at all.

I think a cleric that walks around and coverts enemy troops to join the Indians would be a formidable force.

He he Too much AoK. Remember that the Civ3 (and Firaxis) idea was apparently to provide each Civ with a fighting unit. There is no "conversion" concept in Civ3. Besides, why Indians should be better at conversion? Hardly any of even the British conquerors (not to mention enemies) converted to Hinduism or Buddism

Where are the Spanish conquistadors?!!

This is, IMHO, another common pop-culture mistake. Tercios or Spanish galleons would serve much better as the Spanish CSU. While the efforts of Spanish conquistadors seem impressive, there was actually a handful of conquistadors out there - and it was because of the great leaders (Corez, Pizarro) that they succeeded - not any particular ability. Actually conquistadors were not special in any way other than their purpose - they conquered Aztec due to obvious technological superiority (and some dirty tricks )

What was more dominant, the German Panzer or the German U-Boat? Was the U-Boat THE enemy for the longest time? That would be a killer industrial period unit.

There were many more deserving German CSU in the entire history of the German civilisation. Besides (unlike England - the only civ so far with naval CSU) Germany never was a major naval power - since the Civs apparently tend to start in locations corresponding to the historical ones (with England on shores, Egyptians near deserts and Germany landlocked) this would be not only unhistorical, but also unfair for the German player. Germany ruled on land - that's why they should have the Teutonic knight, a Founding Age infantry or - at the very least - the unfortunate (WWII Gold Age ) Panzer.

Would a Persian fanatic unit be too unsensitive?

It wouldn't be as unsensitive as it would be totally inappropriate. Persia is not (at least directly) a modern day Iran - it flourished under the Achmenid and then Sassanid (sp.?) dynasty.

[Arrian]

This isn't really about CIV III, but as a history major, I couldn't resist.

The American Sherman Tank in WWII was inferior to its German opponents (weaker armor, terrible main gun). It was faster than the Tiger, but because of its thin armor and weak gun it took something like a 3 to 1 ratio of American tanks to deal with a German one - they basically had to get around them and hit the panzer from behind, where the armor was thinner. Of course, since we had well over a 3 to 1 advantage, we won (that, and air superiority). But tank for tank, the German designs were FAR superior. And that's actually not saying all that much, because the real strength of the German panzers was not the hardware, but the tactics employed. Early in the war, the French and British tanks were not really outclassed by the German ones, but they were beaten because the Germans understood better than anyone how to use tanks - the French were particularly behind.. they used tanks like armored artillery. The overall best WWII tank, it has been argued many times, was actually the T34 (USSR).

We've gotten *much* better at making Tanks, though, and the Abrams is pretty mean (and Sid slipped that one in there as the regular "Modern Armor" unit).

On topic - it would be great if the American UU was the Supercarrier (the nuclear powered behemoths we have today, not the WWII versions). But consider the game mechanics... the aircraft carrier isn't an offensive weapon in and of itself. You'd have to let someone else hit it and hope it wins in order to trigger the golden age (unless you already did w/wonders).

If you think about it, we were one of the first countries (the first? I'm not sure) to come up with ironclads. So that's a possibility. Gunboat diplomacy, baby.

-Arrian

[orange]

I think it's important to go with a BROAD UU. Something that is unique to that culture, and something used during the height or rise of that civ. As pointed out earlier, Kamikazes are not apparent in Japanese Military history, while the Samurai defined Japanese military during the height of their power.

[Dr. Nick]

Conquistadors:
Tercios:

[Styria]

Originally posted by Arrian
If you think about it, we were one of the first countries (the first? I'm not sure) to come up with ironclads. So that's a possibility. Gunboat diplomacy, baby.

The French and British had ironclads in the Crimean War, I think, 10 years before we had any.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by dexters

In worldwar 2, German tanks generally outclassed American ones.

That's true. I have to underline that when the WWII began, only the Germans had tanks that were proper for battlefield. Of course we have good Russian tanks (like BT-7 and T-34) too, but the "better ones" came later during the war. The British army didn't have any tanks that would have been useful for the war; yes, that's true, the Vickers were out of date. Of course later on they received better tank models from US and invented better ones on their own too.

My personal suggestion would have been Tiger I or Panther A as the German UU, and not "Panzer".

[Ribannah]

I want a Water Engineer as the Dutch SU.
Changes shallow sea into grassland.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Styria

The French and British had ironclads in the Crimean War, I think, 10 years before we had any.

They had wooden ships wherein the bowes were fitted with strips of iron. By that definition, the Koreans had them centuries before. The Confederate 'Merrimack' was the same way (though it had more iron), but the Union 'Monitor' had a completely-iron hull and was nearly completely submerged. That is the true definition of an 'ironclad' ship; it needs to be more iron (actually steel) than wood. It also makes the battle of Hampton Roads (Monitor vs the Merrimack) the first battle between two 'ironclads'.

Apart from that, I think that the F-15 should have been scrapped as an American UU. Perhaps a 'Los Angeles'-class nuclear submarine with an additional attack and/or defense point; or a 'Nimitz'-class nuclear aircraft carrier with more range/ carrying capicity/ or beefed defense that could compete with a battleship.

The Panzer is fine IMHO, but if it must be tweeked, perhaps making it the equivilant of a modern tank in terms of 2 attack/round but with it's original stats. That would better reflect the general German tactical superiority when it came to armoured tactics.

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
I want a Water Engineer as the Dutch SU.
Changes shallow sea into grassland.

What would it replace?

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Ribannah
I want a Water Engineer as the Dutch SU.
Changes shallow sea into grassland.

Not a bad idea, but I think all the CSU should be battle worthy. Otherwise there is no way of the winning a battle and triggering a GA. Moreover, the special units can only differ from the regular units in Attack, Defence, Movement (and resources needed). We are not able, AFAIK, add specific abilities that were not originally included in the game.

But a special Dutch unit is really an interesting question. Perhaps some fast naval unit (Caravel or Galleon?). I must admit I am not very good on the history of Netherlands, so I don't know what other unit it could be.

All in all, I think in the history of humanity, four civs/nations were really ruling the waves: English, Spanish, Portugese and Dutch. IMHO, the should be the only ones with navy CSU. (Btw, before people jump at me - US is ruling the waves right now, however due to technological development it is not so important today as it was some time ago).