Which civ was the most powerful in all history?

[alskdj80]

it never had the GLOBAL reach of Britain.

I'm not so sure about that... gunpowder from China seemed a main reason why Britain was able to defeat it. There are some other things too, but I agree that China never had the same kind of influence on the world that Britain, Rome, Americans did (or 'do' in the case of the Americans). However, I think it's partially because they never did show their strength or had the will to. Isolation was a major factor behind their apparent weakness, and actually caused its downfall.

Nevertheless, the British were more powerful than the Chinese. Clear evidence: they beat them in a war!

Not necessarily, Vietnam beat the Americans in a war but it is clearly not stronger than the US. Actually... hmm... looking back at that previous example... well, it wasn't a good one since it doesn't really prove my point, although it does prove some other points... I'm too lazy to delete it, lol. Take this into account though, China at that time was weak and had gone through many centuries of ignorance (I guess it can be looked at as their Dark Ages). Even though the Brits got the better of them (and they sure did!), that was only one instance in time, whereas if it were another time period, Britain may have been the weakest nation in the world. It's all relative. I mean, a battle between the Roman legion and the worst army in the world today would clearly favour the modern army. Once again, apples and oranges. In my previous post, I discussed the comparison of power during the decline of Rome and a time of prosperity in China, with the Huns as the indirect link. However, I noted that this was not an accurate assessment since only one of the civs were in its prime. I guess thats the difficulty though... it's really hard for two civs to reach the height of their power at the same time.

[Evil Robot]

Originally posted by EEKthedog
The reason so many people voted America is because most ppl posting here are Americans, who simply do not get enough education about the other nations in the world and their history.
Americans are even taught in schools they are the best and biggest etc.
This entire debate is completely drowned in patriotism and chauvinism.

BUAHAHAHAHAHA.

Let me laugh again.

BUAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'll be sure to make sure to tell my AP/IB European History teacher that 'we don't get enough education about other nations in the world.' While I'm at it, I'll tell my Nonwestern Cultures/IB teacher that 'we don't know about other cultures in the world'. Where are your facts, Mr. Smarty Man? I'll give you a hint, 'I've watched TV' is not an answer.

[Sphinx2000]

Odd how the votes seem to...

... correspond to the particular individuals nationality?

First off, I am an American, and have been one my whole life.

Secondly, I don't think anyone should particularly vote (in the above poll) for America if they had a shred of perception relating to history.

Just because the US appears to have its collective hand at the top of the global bat doesn't mean they/we/us/them are a "Great Civilisation".

--- My Civilisation Theorem(or whatever).
(Total Civ. Score) X = (# of (relatively)concurrent years of government.) a * b (# of square miles of absolutely controlled domain (*.5 for protectorates/allies))

Oh yeah, the culture factor.

Sure.

Add it, if you can quantify it.

Using this formula I come up with just one Civilisation on top.

Not the Americans.

Not the English.

Not the Romans.

Or the Japanese.

Even Chinese.

Who is it?


The Egyptians.

Ha!

-Sphinxy


P.S. Always be aware of that cultural fudge factor...

[EEKthedog]

Originally posted by Evil Robot

I'll be sure to make sure to tell my AP/IB European History teacher that 'we don't get enough education about other nations in the world.' While I'm at it, I'll tell my Nonwestern Cultures/IB teacher that 'we don't know about other cultures in the world'. Where are your facts, Mr. Smarty Man? I'll give you a hint, 'I've watched TV' is not an answer.

I've been in the USA for a year, and a vast majority of the people did not know jack **** about anything outside the USA. It was sickening. You try to prove something here with only 1 example, yourself. I am not going to even bother to start a debate with someone who's perception does not go beyond his own self. (You reflect your nation though, only looking to yourself)

[EEKthedog]

All in all it just bothers me that the majority of the Americans here in a 6000 year history they believe they are the most powerful ever relative to their time, where they have only been around for 200 years. the USA only have been dominant for about the last 60-80 years, which covers only 1% of the time given.
You'd have to be blatantly arrogant, stupid and illiterate to claim you Americans are the most powerful ever. So this very poll definately proves everything.

[tomcat ha]

infact in 1940 germany was the world power.
america became dominant after ww2 and only in the west in the east was Russia

[kailhun]

A problem with long gone civ's is that you don't really know them. All you have are stories and ideas of what they may have been like. It isn't unusual for something to be dug up that changes our view of what once was.

I'd like to enter two more contestants:

1. Atlantis. People so powerful that they managed to shape all civilizations on the planet to the present day without leaving a trace.

2. The great civilization of the future that will stand as the most powerfull ever at the end of time.

Robert

[tomcat ha]

nice
did u all know that the Us woudn`t win the WW2.
with out Russia but Russia alone also woud not make it then

[9 ECAC Titles]

The US alone could probably have forced an end to Japanese and German expansion, and I seriously doubt either of those relatively small populations could have kept half the world's populations penned up forever. Then again, avoiding a decade of so of fascist rule in the occupied countries made WW2 worth it.

But it's true that the US needed (and planned for) Russia to absorb most of the carnage and to bleed the German army white before they managed (effectively, alone) to roll back the German advance in western Europe.

Could Japan have held their territories in Manchuria if the US had settled? The only way I see this as possible is if Stalin had agreed to a Poland-like partitioning of some of China.

Could Germany have held African and middle eastern territories to force a stalemate that would provide them with important strategic resources? Maybe -- without the west's (admittedly selfish) interest in these places, I can't see the indigenous peoples putting up much of a fight against fdar superior technology and organization.

[Bubba_B]

Romans win by a toga length...

I've walked the streets of Pompeii....
I've gazed at the ruins of the coliseum.........
I've climbed to the castle fortress of Masada.......
I've toured the Roman markets of Jerusalem........

Rome stands above any Civilization for its age. England, Egypt, American and Greece all have many good arguments for best ever, but Rome without question was the most powerful ever in its time.

Yes Roman culture was for the most part borrowed from the Greeks, the Romans however spread it all the known world.

No standing Army stood a chance against a well lead Roman Legion, and if by chance they were defeated (Hannibal comes to mind), Roman culture and economic power prevented the destruction of the empire.

Even today the Roman influence is felt in the Roman Catholic Church (an extension of Emp. Constantine’s conversion).

By the way I'm American of Scott/German decent, no bias here.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by 9 ECAC Titles
The US alone could probably have forced an end to Japanese and German expansion, and I seriously doubt either of those relatively small populations could have kept half the world's populations penned up forever.

I'd like to see your reasoning behind this.

[siredgar]

Someone, please tell me about the "global" reach of Rome?

As far as I know, global meant the world. Did Rome's influence reach over to the Americas or Australia? I'm sorry, they weren't "discovered" yet, but global does mean the world. Thus, Britain had global reach, Rome did not. I'm not saying Rome could not be judged the greatest power of all time, but it did not have global reach like Britain.

[egovalor]

The United states is obviously the most powerful "civilization" that has ever existed, almost regardless of how choose to qualify "powerful".
Military might? The only nation to have ever existed that could, theoretically, conquer the entire EARTH using only it's military (in a few years). Granted, this senario is fairly new (break up of soviet russia) and is by no means permanent, but there it is. It leads (and has just about always lead) in terms of sheer military manpower as well as military science. Was the deciding factor in in both "world wars", and currently "polices" the globe.
Diplomacy? At present the entire world does what the USA wants it too. Name one nation or people that doesn't and isn't getting obliterated economically or militarily. Given, in terms of historic time this is also a recent development, however even from it's birth the US has been a if not the major player in world affairs.
Land area? While not possesing the largest land area it is certainly one of the largest nations, and without a doubt the land under it's technical boundaries is the most productive agriculturally and otherwise in the world. Also consider: the great mass of land area that the united states possesses was gained in a phenominally short period of time. "Manifest destiny" (note: in terms of land area. No cohesive civilization blocked the expansion, no one had to be conquered. Seriously- the rockies were tougher to master than the American indians) makes Alexander the Great's aquisitions look like nothing, and the Roman Empire like a retarded snail.
Science? The United States has existed for just over 200 years. Virtually every scientific and technological advance of any import in the last 200 years has originated from the United States. If by some odd chance an american didn't discover or invent it, an american found a viable use for it, perfected it, mass produced it, or made it safe for the world. The Car. The TV. Genetic splicing. The Cheese-burger. Also, civilisation with highest literacy rate and life span *to have ever existed*. We're talking major civilisations here- don't say "But the literacy rate in switzerland or Great Britain....", because they don't count as civilizations anymore, and would likely not exist without US aid or protection anyhow.
Culture? A no-brainer. Every nation on Earth attempts to emulate the United States in terms of behavior and cultural activity. If people can't get close enough to the border to crawl into citizenship, they demand that their countries make life as American-like as possible. They want movies and sports cars and McDonalds. Mostly, they want freedom, which is to say, they want personal rights. Definately, an American invention. American owned companies exist in every country 5 times over and American media inudates the world. Why can I go to russia and sell a pair of jeans for 300 dollars (or it's rubble equivilent)? Because they are 100% American. There are a million examples. In "game terms", the US won a cultural victory about 80 years ago. They don't show chinese movies in russia. You can't tune into russian radio in Austrialia. No one in South America knows anything about Austrailian sports. South Americans don't teach their children comprehensive german history, and vice versa. But every major country awaits the next big American movie. I can find American radio on any dial in the (civilized) world. The four corners of the world bet on game 7 of the world series. And if an elementary school in the world doesn't study American history...well then, it's because an oppressive regime is afraid to let it. Nuff said, I believe, and all very true.
Politics? American policy decides the course of the world. Also, consider the values in which you judge a nation's political system or it's political health. How do you guage how "advanced" a nation's politics and/or ruling powers are? By how near it is to being a constitutional democracy...i.e, how closely it resembles America. Check this out. Not ONLY did America begin it's existence by shunning archaic European politics...but a short time later every country in Europe got jealous and tried to copy them. "Hey, we want a constitution and liberties like them!"
Economy? I doubt there is much need for an arguement here. One tidbit however: Americans invented the term "to make money". Before american psuedo-capitalism, wealth was a static quantity to be stolen or siphoned or looted. Having in all senses of the word "invented" productivity, it is no small wonder that america continues to dominate the globe economically. When the dow jones industrial takes a hit, every nation trembles.
In summary...being powerful is in essence holding influence or sway. There is no civilisation to have ever existed that holds more influence over so many people (the whole world) and so much land (well, heh, the whole world except for some afgan caves, but I suspect they will come around). The key words here are *to have ever existed*.

These arguments will be presented, if anyone bothered to read all this:

A. The United States has only been around for 200 years. How can you say it is the greatest EVER, when the (enter random civilization here) was around for THOUSANDS????

The youth of the US as a civilization is only a testiment to it's power. What group of people have accomplished SO MUCH in so little time? Besides, it's irrelvent to the question/poll. An (american, heh) analogy: Micheal Jordan was probably the greatest basketball player to have ever lived. This was just as true in his FIRST season as his 6th.

B. America couldn't conquer the world! That just hows how ARROGANT you are!

Answer: 1. America has already counquered the world. You just don't pay us taxes. In fact, our taxes probably pay you....
and 2. Are you daft? Of course it could. What century are YOU living in?

C. "America" isn't even a civilization. It's just a multicultural conglomeration of people and ideas from throughout the world and history. Everyone speaks ENGLISH, and thats not American.

Well, do you think this conglomeration of peoples from around the globe accidently decided to collect itself on the north american continent, blatently avoiding mexico and suspiciously south of canada? And what nation did invent the english language? I can't believe I actually saw someone write that in this thread.

D. America just bullies people.

Sure does. Bullies everyone. Fortunately this usually involves GIVING STUFF AWAY, like food or money. Here's a project every history or current events professor should give his students: compile a list of every country that would cease to exist, or would suffer grievous economic collapse and/or casualties if the United states withheld all of it's foreign aid (and protection). Or complie a list of the foregn aid recieved by the United States...during it's entire history. Here's the catch: The Confederacy doesn't count.

C. But you can still see and live examples of the roman and egyptian culture even today!

Can you imagine any event within the next 5000 years that could eradicate the massive cultural revolution that has sprung and continues to spring directly from the United States? Short of the DESTRUCTION of the WORLD? And I mean MASSIVE culture. Not pointed mounds of rock or cracked pillars found in an archilogical dig. Roman culture existed IN ROME. Do you think daily life in germania changed a whole bunch during roman "rule"?

D. You are biased by the time frame. If the Egyptians or the Persians existed now, they could influence the whole world like the US. It is an unfair advantage, because of all the new technology. And the world isn't in the same political and social scenario as it was during various hisotorical eras.

True, but consider this: All this new technology is the product of the industrial revolution combined with years of free trade and free thought. These things are American. That is, the US poineered these things and made them possible. If you don't think so, you don't undertstand that social and scientific progress is directly dependent on proper government. And the Americans invented that, and made it work. The English may have held sway over a (proportional for the time, if you insist) small amount of the world...but they didn't invent the boat. Or the concept of military might, which are precisely the tools they used. Americans DID "invent" the constitutional republic (modern democracy), and the concept of individual rights. Which is what makes their current dominance possible.
A side note. For all purposes, the persians and the egyptians and chinese all DO exist today, as a people. However, consider how they make use of today's "time frame". People in the middle east still use women as currency. They still skin people and have regional religious wars. Only they use imported American m-16 rifles instead of flint spears or iron scimitars, and they use radio to propogandize instead of orators. The only thing "modern" about China is and most of the far east is the technology that has seeped in from outside it's borders.
And no, the world isn't in the same political or social situation now as at has been at various points. It is in whatever political or social situation that the United States feels most appropriate.

[egovalor]

Originally posted by EEKthedog
All in all it just bothers me that the majority of the Americans here in a 6000 year history they believe they are the most powerful ever relative to their time, where they have only been around for 200 years. the USA only have been dominant for about the last 60-80 years, which covers only 1% of the time given.
You'd have to be blatantly arrogant, stupid and illiterate to claim you Americans are the most powerful ever. So this very poll definately proves everything.

Are you from the netherlands? Contact your local government official (heck I dunno...do you still have kings or princes over yonder?) and ask him how much foreign aid your country has recieved this year from Mr and Mrs. Arrogant. In fact, find out yourself...didn't we send you guys the internet? I know you were on our list SOMEWHERE.
Oh, and here's a clue. Known history is a little bit longer than exactly 6000 years. That's just in the computer game civ3. At least we know where you get your history from. Turn off the puter and crack a book sometime.

[egovalor]

Originally posted by EEKthedog



I've been in the USA for a year, and a vast majority of the people did not know jack **** about anything outside the USA. It was sickening. You try to prove something here with only 1 example, yourself. I am not going to even bother to start a debate with someone who's perception does not go beyond his own self. (You reflect your nation though, only looking to yourself)

Sickening maybe, but it proves the dominance. While Americans don't know jack **** about your nationlette, I am willing to bet that in your home country the vast majority of the people there DO know alot about what goes on inside the United States. It is a consequence of this little truth:

United States: very important.

Your country: How do you pronounce that? Why should we care again?