Which civ was the most powerful in all history?

[Joe R. Golowka]

What Empire has been bigger then America?

Probably the United States. Why? It's the only world empire in human history. The US has exterminated huge numbers of people and subjectated even more. The American domestic thought control system is also unprecedented - theyv'e managed to brainwash the majority of the population into believing that they're a democracy despite clear evidence to the contray (look at the last election). Americans have even been fooled into thinking they're fighting a war on terrorism despite the fact that the US government is one of the biggest sponsors of terrorism worldwide.

Of course, technically America should probably be considered a subset of the Western Civilization. They just inherited Britain & France's Empire and then expanded upon it. I suppose the USA is really a frankenstein creation of England.

[pumph]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Actually, they would be better off going to the source: Africa.

Yes yes of course, but apart from looking to Africa for African music (obviously!) I'd said better Ligeti *than* jazz. [BTW my apologies for mangling his name earlier; it was Gyorgy Ligeti I meant]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Now as to jazz being part of the musical canon of Europe- some of its influences come from there, I never denied that, it is after all a Creole hybridized culture; but the fact of its hybridization means you cannot claim it all for Europe.

Jazz played on industrial-age tempered keyboards and written using bar lines is African? Really? Remember, the big debate about African polyrhythm is whether it is polymetric; if not, then one must perceive the underlying pulse - it has initially pulse rather than beat - as being very very fast indeed, subordinate pulses occuring as fast as twelve per second. Even Ligeti, by using sixteen fast pulses per measure in 4/4 time to produce a background ostinato only manages a crude approximation of the true complexity of polyrhythm. Refer to Arom's "Polyphonies et polyrhythmies instrumentales d'Afrique centrale", where he states that African music does not rely on the Western concept of meter. According to Ligeti (in the introduction) Arom "opens the door leading to a new way of thinking about polyphony, one which is completely different from the European metric structures, but equally rich, or maybe, considering the possibility of using a quick pulse as a 'common denominator' upon which various patterns can be polyrhythmically superimposed, even richer than the European tradition".

Originally posted by molly bloom

Now as for its being merely a style: which style is it? Bebop, hot jazz, trad, big band, swingtime, New Orleans, jazz-funk, East Coast, West Coast, Latin jazz, fusion,.....

It is interesting to note that jazz itself underwent a process of what one might call "decolonization", or perhaps a trend towards modernism. You find this beginning in the transition from New Orleans to Kansas City jazz, and in Charlie Parker's bebop but above all in the dissolution of the chromatic scale in pieces by Thelonius Monk. However, true modernism arrives with free jazz, which dissolved the still-present neo-national harmonic and rhythmic constraints of bebop by "sublating the instrumental technique of the jazz solo into the aural palettes of a multinational studio and recording technology". Finally, Coltrane's Manifestations contain no less than "the iterative repetition of every possible tone-cluster at every conceivable pitch interleaved with the objective materials of Second and Third World musical styles": jazz is thereby "brought into contact with the decolonized materials of its musical prehistory".

So, a jazz parallel to Ligeti's modernist art music! If jazz was an "African hybrid" at more than an entirely superficial level, why the need to decolonize it and reintroduce it to its African roots in such a way as to shatter its original *Western* musical form of tempered chromaticism and metric beat?

I'm aware that all this is going very OT this thread. Does *nobody* want to take up my earleir comments about the significance of Cinema as the great new art form of our age and relate that to American Civilization?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by pumph

Jazz played on industrial-age tempered keyboards and written using bar lines is African? Really?

Neither European nor African, but American:

'.....powerful polyrhythms that are perhaps the most striking and moving element of African music. In the same way that Bach might intermingle different but interrelated melodies in creating a fugue, an African ensemble would construct layer upon layer of rhythmic patterns, forging a counterpoint of time signatures, a polyphony of percussion. We will encounter this multiplicity of rhythm again and again in our study of African-American music, from the lilting syncopations of ragtime, to the diverse of offbeat accents of the bebop drummer, to the jarring cross-rhythms of the jazz avant-garde. "

https://www.allaboutjazz.com/journalists/Gioia4.htm

https://www.gse.uci.edu/Lessons/blues.html

https://www.worldbook.com/fun/aamusic/html/intro.htm

https://www.duke.edu/~wvg/page2.html

[Fresno]

Just trying to bring this thread back to topic

Why didn't anybody reacted to my post about the Jews being the most influentive civ? The later Romans, the later Greece, all the European peoples and all Muslim peoples have religions rooted in the Jewish faith.

[9 ECAC Titles]

For most powerful over all of history (accumulation of power): China. 6000 years of dominance in their huge region, with gigantic population and well developed culture. Often invaded yet never conquered (absorbing their conquerors instead). No question.

For most powerful at the height of their power (highest spike): Rome. The Mediterranean as a Roman lake, control of every cradle of ancient civ within their reach, and well ahead of the eastern empires in terms of concentraiton of power, learning, and tech.

The US has been extremely powerful across the board for 50 years, and if we hang on to #1 for another 150-250 years then we'll start to show up on the historical radar screen. Until then, we're a blip. As for highest spike, no modern nation will ever approach the highs of the ancient civs -- wealth, power, and tech are far more widely distributed now, and the exchnage of information makes monoplies of power, by an empire or by a ruling elite, impossible to sustain.

[EdwardTKing]

My review of civilisations is as follows:

Babylonians
Egyptians
Romans
Chinese

were all very powerful in their day; but their power never extended beyond their particular part of the world. Most of the world never interacted with them. Much of the world had never heard of them then.

I do not regard the Mongols as a real civilisation but more as a pyramid style warrior cult (jump on your horse and go forth and murder as many people as possible with your bow and lance; sparing only those who will join you to do likewise) being quite similar to the more recent Hitler cult (jump inside your panzer and murder as many people as possible one way or the other). The Mongols did not last more than a few generations (Genghis to great grandson etc) and left absolutely nothing of value behind.

The Spanish and British Empires had a global reach via naval power.

The British Empire was probably more powerful than Spain; it being able
to conquer much of Africa, India and defeat China (in the Opium wars) while Spain's victories were primarily against the more sparsely populated Americas and unknowingly aided by bacteria and viruses for which the indigenous amerians had little natural immunity against.

However even at the height of the British Empire (from 1815 defeat of Napoleon to 1870 emergence of Germany) there were always parts of the world (typically inland e.g. Afghanistan, Mongolia and Switzerland; but occasionally maritime Japan and USA) which remained fully independent.

The most powerful civilisation is the U.S.A. which has a clear lead in:

"Global Reach" with air power and space power (remember the Americans are the only people to have walked on the moon - congratulations and by the way - please - are they going to land on Mars too before I die).

"Economic Power" (Wall Street rules; London is just a franchise now).

"Legal Power" (Americans have been able to impose their invention
"intellectual property rights" over most of world (only China, India, Bin Laden and Linux guerrillas really resisting) whilst ignoring attempts by rest of the civilised world (to ban land mines, halt global warming, biological weapons inspections treaty).

"Scientific Thrust" (there are many good scientists throughout the world; but the Americans have currently produced or bought more than any other civilisation).

"Political Power" (although representational democracy and civil rights were essentially european; their current take-up world wide (e.g. in Japan after world war 2) reflects current american, not european, power.

the only two factors for which america does not have a lead are
"Land Area" (I disregard the unproductive tundras of Canada and Russia; and the deserts of Australia; regarding the contest as nearly equal between China, India, Russia and USA) and "Total Population" for which the USA is clearly third to China and India.

I do not accept the (not entirely serious) views (of in my mind envious fellow europeans) that the USA is not actually a civilisation (although - ha ha - it is amazing that so many americans have let them themselves be easily wound up in this discussion.

I understand that while the USA has a very diverse culture (which is a strength) mixture, it is united by (acceptance of capitalism, use of english, respect for constitution, flag, love of motor car, individual persuit of happiness and wealth, understanding as to what is American and what is not, and its own unique games such as American Football; and BaseBall) and is therefore undoubtedly a de facto civilisation.

In my opinion US power has been pre-eminent for about 80 years from about 1920 (although many did not realise that before Hiroshima 1945) to today 2001.

The reason the Hebrews/Israelites have not been selected as a civilisation in the game? I suspect Sid Meier is Jewish and wishes to maintain a healthy separation of his professional life (producing the computer game) from his own private cultural background.

Edward the Englishman

[Fresno]

This thread is about all history. America won't be so powerful for ever.

During the reign of Louis XIV, France had a reputation similar to the American reputation today. Now look at the poll results: how many voted for the French?

[tomcat ha]

turkey is the best(patriotistic)
without them the ressisance woud never start.
and genghis khan is in fact turkish and mongolian.
and and and and hmmm
o yeah they make the start of the ressisance

[cavebear]

(accidental sending of partial message)

[cavebear]

Originally posted by tomcat ha
turkey is the best(patriotistic)
without them the ressisance woud never start.
and genghis khan is in fact turkish and mongolian.
and and and and hmmm
o yeah they make the start of the ressisance

*Smile*

1. Ghengis Khan was not Turkish, his people were a couple of thousand miles away.

2. The Arabs got the culture and science from the Greeks. They also got a lot of culture and technology from the Chinese.

3. With the cultural momentum from that, they managed to establish a fairly high culture for a few hundred years. On their own afterwards, they fell behind rather rapidly.

4. Other than the scientific knowledge they gained from the Greeks, the main historical contribution of the Arabs to Europe was the Bubonic Plagues that wiped out 1/4 of the population. To be fair, they were just passing it on from Eastern Asia, but that is where it arrived in Europe from.

5. On its own, Middle East culture after a few centuries of Islam has been one of decline and anti-modernism.

6. Once isolated from Europe and China, Islamic culture essentially collapsed until the past century. It did not have the resources or cultural skills to progress on its own.

7. If it were not for oil, the entire Middle East would be like Ethiopia.

8. That having been said, I very much respect the Turkish people for having established one of the very few Islamic Nations with even remotely democratic/secular traditions.

[ranskaldan]

cavebear, i'm shocked.

i don't exactly have time to rebut your points fully right now, since it's pretty late. but i can tell you that from 800 to 1600, the arab and turkish cultures were among the most advanced, open, and secular in the world. only after the Renaissance did Europe become even in sight behind them.

As for the 'inheriting the science from the Greeks' part, well, so did the Europeans. So what? It's what's new that counts. And the Arab contribution to chemistry, astronomy and algebra is simply immense. Even the world 'algebra' is an Arabic word. So is 'alkali', in fact, and a lot of the names of the stars in the night sky.

only in the last 100-200 years did Islam become the relatively more radical religion (compared to Christianity), and fall behind in technology and political development. But that is no reason to disregard the 800 years of enlightenment, civilization, and development that came before.

[Fresno]

Absolutely. That's why I think it is a shame that there isn't a single Muslim civ in Civ2. I'm not sure about Civ3, but I can't remember having read about them being included this time.

[PSetzer]

I chose USA simply because I thought that the whole question was on military might. Mahan would consider the current crop of boats to be the ne plus ultra of naval might. The American idea of a destroyer is a 9000 ton boat capable of lobbing missiles to targets a whole two squares away. A dozen nukes in the mix, and Afghanistan wouldn't be there for the evening news. US Aircraft Carriers haul along a carrier wing about the size of most countries' air forces. We have 12 of the damned things. We have however many divisions of troops, a whole bunch of tanks.

With other considerations like culture, it's a different story.

[chiren]

Originally posted by Faeelin
Because hwile the British may have invented Democracy, the US took it to where it is today.

the us has no democracy only a republic system. they elect people to for them (senat) like the romans did similar 2000 years ago.

in switzerland there is a democracy today (or what is very close to it)

[chiren]

Originally posted by cavebear


1. Ghengis Khan was not Turkish, his people were a couple of thousand miles away.

Ghengis Khan was turkish an mongolian !

2. The Arabs got the culture and science from the Greeks. They also got a lot of culture and technology from the Chinese.

they mixed it and make their own
like you do in deity-games

7. If it were not for oil, the entire Middle East would be like Ethiopia.

maybe