Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Hebrew/Israelis

[tmarcl]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth


BTW, I'd suggest two new Wonders, with explanations:

The Great Temple: Gives the benefits of a temple to every city. Immediately gives the advance of Monotheism. Also builds Palace in the city that builds it.
Requires: Mysticism.
Explanation: Built by the Soloman, the Great Temple solidified Jerusalem's place as the Hebrew capital. It also centralized the Hebrew sacrificial cult in one location, eliminating the need to continue worship at paganesque "High Places." Under the reign of Josiah, the alternative worship places were destroyed, and the Temple rededicated.

I'd disagree with the free advance. The building of the Great Temple didn't precede the Jewish belief in one god-it came after.

Marc

[SeferKoheleth]

>I'd disagree with the free advance. The building of the Great >Temple didn't precede the Jewish belief in one god-it came after.

I agree-- the free advance is a way to work it into the game. Since the Temple WAS an ancient wonder, it doesn't make much sense to place it in the Middle Ages, after Monotheism or Theology. So the next best alternative is polytheism or mysticism... but the problem with that is that, historically, the Temple WAS monotheistic (at least during the GOOD kings of Judah).

So I solve this dilemna by giving Monotheism as a free advance. Not totally accurate, but a good fit for the game.

[Harel]

By who's definiation, exactly, did it prove distatrous? Not me, and not the majority of the people in Israel. Oh, it's a fine trumpet for Benjamin Netnayhu and Sharon to blast in order to place the blame on their deads. There was nothing wrong with Rabin approach, and there was a steady approach toward peace, that Bibi managed to destroy. Sure, there were bombings: but hey, there are always terrorist attacks in Israel. At least there was an aim, a hope.

About the economy: sure dude, you are WAY wrong. Rabin built a very strong economy. He may have caused a huge deficit, but he spent billions of dollars in improving Israel high-way systems, replacing the outdated phone systems with state-of-the-art technology, and openned the industry to forgien investors. In 1990 Israel was barely a third-world nation, on blockade for most of the european and eastren companies. We didn't have cable TV, almost no electronics and cars to choose from, computers cost like heck, no one heard of the internet... it was a backwater nation. By 1994 we were a westren economy and the fastest growning economy in the west. Rabin laid the foundations that even Bibi in his folly couldn't destroy. The one who destroyed the economy was, without doubt, Bibi - who took drastic economical steps that just doesn't work in Israel economy, and pushed away most of the forgien investors with his political and economical approach.

Ben Guryaon was a sentimental idiot, who openned the country for the current orthodox-occupation by being soft and caving in the only right time to stop the orthodox-leechs on their tracks. He made many gravious mistakes, and he is certainly not such a worthy PM.

And solomon? HUH! Fairy tells, legends and stories. Another king, with the only difference that in his time the kingdom was huge, streching along from Euthopia to Syria.

[Eli]

Errr.... Ethiopia? Solomon?
I think he had some influence there because of a few marriages, but he didnt rule there.

By who's definiation, exactly, did it prove distatrous? Not me, and not the majority of the people in Israel. Oh, it's a fine trumpet for Benjamin Netnayhu and Sharon to blast in order to place the blame on their deads. There was nothing wrong with Rabin approach, and there was a steady approach toward peace, that Bibi managed to destroy. Sure, there were bombings: but hey, there are always terrorist attacks in Israel. At least there was an aim, a hope

Right.
Steady approach towards peace includes giving guns to those who were teaching their children to kill Jews? Or is it ignoring the incitement, only because cancelling the agreements is not comfortable(and we know what it led to)? And i'm not talking about the Mitzubishi yet...

[SeferKoheleth]

Let's see.... Rabin ignored massive incitement, ignored flagrant Oslo violations, such as Arafat building up a 50,000 person army... oh, I'm sorry "police force." The suicide bombings in the first few years of Oslo FAR exceeded the deaths from terrorism during the intifada. The fact was that prior to Oslo, the PLO was broke due to its support of Iraq in the Gulf War and the loss of funding from its Arab benefactors. The intifada, pre-Oslo was about sticks and stones-- not bullets and mortars, and was already dying down on its own. Had Rabin the betzin to tell the world to f-ck off until Arafat fulfilled his obligations and teached his people peace, in Arabic, Israel would be in a much better situation.

>In 1990 Israel was barely a third-world nation, on blockade for >most of the european and eastren companies. We didn't have >cable TV, almost no electronics and cars to choose from, >computers cost like heck, no one heard of the internet... it was >a backwater nation.

Uh... let's see, in 1990, NO ONE ANYWHERE had heard of the internet, and the world was in a mild global recession. Much of the TRUE economic opening happened under Bibi. Bibi, however, was constrained by Rabin's massive deficits and payoffs to the unions, and the need to devalue the shekel.

Israel hasn't been a 3rd world nation since the 50s, btw. Trust me, I've been to both Israel and lived in the REAL 3rd world (Bolivia, Zaire, Mexico etc.)


>Sure, there were bombings: but hey, there are always terrorist >attacks in Israel. At least there was an aim, a hope

There was hope in Britian around 1938.... would you still praise Chaimberlain?

[Harel]

I am sorry my friend, maybe you did visit Israel but you have no idea about what it is. I've visited all over the world, and Israel prior to the 80th was no better then a third world nation. The economical state may have been better, but in matters of growth, technology, electronics and available material Israel was extreamly backward. If you argue with that, then you haven't spent enough time in Israel. I remember it when every trip to a foreign nation brought a list of numerous electronics items, from computers to toaster ovens: things you just couldn't get here, or only with very high prices and small selections.

The true economic happening occured under bibi? What planet are you living on? The economical growth plummed from 9% to 4% and lower, and unemployment soured to an all-time number. We had 3% of unemployment under Rabin, now we suffer under 10%. Every fact points against you. In terms of foreign investments, growth rate, extent of import/export, everything dropped under bibi. All those economical reforms, the psuedo-american nonsense, just doesn't work in Israel social climate. Devalue the shekel? Drop the inflation rate? Well, we got a 0% inflation rate now. Weee. Happiness. So useful when you don't have a job or anything to spend it on.

The fact is, the economy was far better under Rabin. All the economical terms and slogans bibi used are of no avail. Go and ask the people in the street about the economy. That's what matters, in the end.

Actually, the deaths under the intifida far supress anything we seen in the suicide bombings, even today. I've served in the army, so I just happen to know. It was far worse back then. And it was certainly not dying on it's on.
About waiting... so easy to say it from far away. Sorry, just plain wrong. The palestians will see reason when they have their own nation, not a minute before. Another year of waiting is another year of senseless deaths. You have no true grasp of the sitution, and the mentallity of our neighbors. Forgive me I don't share your American opinion to blow everything I don't like to smithering (Afganinstan, anyone?)

[Eli]

I am sorry my friend, maybe you did visit Israel but you have no idea about what it is. I've visited all over the world, and Israel prior to the 80th was no better then a third world nation. The economical state may have been better, but in matters of growth, technology, electronics and available material Israel was extreamly backward. If you argue with that, then you haven't spent enough time in Israel. I remember it when every trip to a foreign nation brought a list of numerous electronics items, from computers to toaster ovens: things you just couldn't get here, or only with very high prices and small selections.

The true economic happening occured under bibi? What planet are you living on? The economical growth plummed from 9% to 4% and lower, and unemployment soured to an all-time number. We had 3% of unemployment under Rabin, now we suffer under 10%. Every fact points against you. In terms of foreign investments, growth rate, extent of import/export, everything dropped under bibi. All those economical reforms, the psuedo-american nonsense, just doesn't work in Israel social climate. Devalue the shekel? Drop the inflation rate? Well, we got a 0% inflation rate now. Weee. Happiness. So useful when you don't have a job or anything to spend it on.

The fact is, the economy was far better under Rabin. All the economical terms and slogans bibi used are of no avail. Go and ask the people in the street about the economy. That's what matters, in the end.

Agreed. In terms of economy Bibi caused only damage.

Actually, the deaths under the intifida far supress anything we seen in the suicide bombings, even today. I've served in the army, so I just happen to know. It was far worse back then. And it was certainly not dying on it's on.

I dont think so...
The first Intifada was a real popular uprising, they almost never used real weapons, and suiciders started exploding only in the end of the Intifada.
I dont know how many people were killed in the years of the first Intifada, but I believe that it's far less than in the year of the current one.

About waiting... so easy to say it from far away. Sorry, just plain wrong. The palestians will see reason when they have their own nation, not a minute before.

Who will see reason? The children that are/were taught to kill the "sons of the pigs and the monkeys"(Jews)?

Another year of waiting is another year of senseless deaths.

But what will happen 5 years after the Palestinian state will exist? Can someone guarantee that the incitement will not stop? And if it doesnt stop, all the agreements will become useless.

You have no true grasp of the sitution, and the mentallity of our neighbors. Forgive me I don't share your American opinion to blow everything I don't like to smithering (Afganinstan, anyone?)

There are more than enough Israelis who share his opinions. I dont think that they are also "dont understand the mentality of our neighbors".

[tmarcl]

Originally posted by Harel
Forgive me I don't share your American opinion to blow everything I don't like to smithering (Afganinstan, anyone?)

What. we should give Bin Ladin flowers for having killed how many thousands of people on Sept. 11th? You're right. Hell, let's celebrate Hitler's birthday too, while we're at it.

Marc

[jdd2007]

interesting arguments, everyone. so . . . what should this civ be called?

[tmarcl]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth
>I'd disagree with the free advance. The building of the Great >Temple didn't precede the Jewish belief in one god-it came after.

I agree-- the free advance is a way to work it into the game. Since the Temple WAS an ancient wonder, it doesn't make much sense to place it in the Middle Ages, after Monotheism or Theology. So the next best alternative is polytheism or mysticism... but the problem with that is that, historically, the Temple WAS monotheistic (at least during the GOOD kings of Judah).

So I solve this dilemna by giving Monotheism as a free advance. Not totally accurate, but a good fit for the game.

Actually, putting it under Mysticism might not be such a bad idea. By the time of the Great Temple, the Jews had pretty much codified their system of beliefs into a religion-the Great Temple would be the expression of that, IMO.

Of course, I'm one of those who feels Mysticism should be renamed to Religion, and be put *after* Polytheism.

Marc

[jdd2007]

this is the second time the thread has fallen from page one. It is my decision that the Hebrews/Israelis now be-

Israel/Hebrew/Hebrews

comments? suggestions? questions?

[sulla]

All incredible ideas

[Solomyr]

jdd,

call it the Hebrews and be done with it. we are strangers thoughout the world, and homeless for 2000 years before the modern state. and, IMO, i think the Golden age should be ancient. that's when the temple stood, that's when we had our kings, judges, prophets. however, a moden golden age would let the UU be a Masada unit. a special forces unit. upgraded marine, with stealth, no nationality markings, and spy/diplomats capibilities.

as far as the wonders, i like every temple functioning as a libary, as that is how it really is in jewish tradition, in my experience. but giving a temple to every city IMO would unbalence the games since all similar wonders have been removed or altered. it could double or triple the effect of temples, without expireing like the oracle. unless of course it was destoryed

and finally, it is nice to see such a livily discussion going on.
two jews, three opinions might be true, but 14 jews on apolyton gets us 2.435*10^18 opinions

[RedSox7]

Eventually, through the efforts of Great Britain, the United States, and thousands of dedicated Zionists around the world, the new state of Israel was founded in 1948 with David Ben-Gurion as Prime Minister. They came into immediate conflict with the neighboring Arabs and angry Palestinians, but won their wars in the '60s and occupied the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula. The Sinai was fazed back to Egypt, but the other areas are still under Israeli occupation today. Israel is currently involved in a bloody struggle with the Palestinians over the creation of an independent Palestinian state. [/QUOTE]

Locutus, adding this civ is a good idea. I have some suggestions to make about the history, though. First, the British did more to hinder than to help. They disarmed Israeli's whenever they could and turned weapons and forts over to the Arabs when they left. Second, Arab-Israeli wars were fought in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. It is inaccurate to say "won their wars in the '60s". Third, a note for the record. The occupied territory was won in wars that Israel fought for its survival as a nation. If the Arabs had won in 1948, then Israel would not be in existence today.

[Solomyr]

History

i would also replace "occupation" with "control". and i would leave out the bit about the current struggles. you didn't mention the first intifada (late 80's -early 90's) or the constant state of terror attacks for the last 50 years. and not that you should, but i suggest removing the part about the current situation. becasue hopefully, it will be over soon, and in 50 years, people will have all but forgotten about it and will be living in peace.