Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Hebrew/Israelis

[tmarcl]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


I suggest to add:

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Benjamin, Josef, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Samson, Saul, David, Solomon, Jonathan, Joab, Hezkiah, Nehemia, Ezrah, Juda Maccabeus. Then jump: Herzel, David Ben Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Golda Meir.

I'd have to disagree on Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Benjamin (assuming you mean Jacob's son), Josef (same assumption), Moses and Aaron. Abraham through Joseph weren't leaders of the state of Israel while Moses and Aaron were religious leaders, not military.

(I'm assuming you're talking about the list of leaders that are available to civilizations through combat.)

Marc

[Eli]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth
Soloman should be the leader.

Cities:
Jerusalem
Hebron
Tvzat
Tiberias
Jericho
Shilo
Shechem
Giliead
Masada
Gamla
Dan
Betar
Yafo
Yavneh
Eliat
Tel-Aviv

Wut?

What about Ashdod! It's the fifth biggest city in Israel!

Btw, from where are you?

[jdd2007]

nice to see u here, eli. im sure u will be of help.

things taken into account. will edit cities and leaders.

[Harel]

A few things. Israel should certainly not be a religious state. It should be a scientific-militaristic nation.

For UU: Zealots? Oh, come on! What's that has to do with anything? Why not the Merkava, the best tank in the world? Or the Saar, a unique missile boat? How about the Levi is a modified interceptor? You got plenty of modern Israeli tech to choose from, no need to turn Israel to some sort of fanatic religious nation.

For leaders, I would love to see Yizhak Rabin name in there. A solid tribute to one of the best military leaders in history.

For cities, how about:

Herziliya
Rishon Lizion
Ramat Hasharon
Kfar Saba
Soham
Ashkelon
Mevesert
Metola
Rosh Pina
Kiryat Shmona

[SeferKoheleth]

> A few things. Israel should certainly not be a religious state. It >should be a scientific-militaristic nation.

Harel,
What planet of arch-secularism do you come from? I'm a proud MOT myself (as you can tell from my handle)--- but the greatest thing we gave the world, the thing that makes us stand out as special-- was our faith and holy texts. All the commercial, scientific, military and industrial giants we've produced because of our faith binding us together. Would Herzl exist without Rambam? Would Ben-Gurion exist without Ben-Yishai?

The Hebrews/Israelites are DEF a religious civ. I'd throw in commerce too, if nothing else than the glorious stereotype of Jewish bankers/money lenders (quite true in the Middle Ages-- as only Jews could lend money on interest, and we're forbidden from entering most professions). Of the remainder... scientific makes the best argument. But I'd still vote religious/commercial.

>For UU: Zealots? Oh, come on! What's that has to do with >anything? Why not the Merkava, the best tank in the world? Or >the Saar, a unique missile boat? How about the Levi is a >modified interceptor?

You seem to be centered on Modern Israel as the pinnicale of Jewish/Israelite existence. Modern Israel is 6 million people on a planet of 6 billion-- it's hardly worthy to be considered one of the greatest civs to ever walk the planet. But the community of Israel from Ancient to Modern stands out, especially the ancient part.

Still-- I'll agree there's argument about the UU. Maybe the Merkava-- but certainly not the Levi (it didn't warrant getting produced!! after all...).

Yet, for sheer uniqueness, I'd stick with the Zealot-- better titled the Maccabee! After all, the Maccabean rebellion was perhaps the FIRST guerilla war in history, and the FIRST rebellion ever fought for religious/national freedom. It was the Maccabean tradition that won the freedom of the Second Commonwealth.... and continued through the period of the Zealots all the way to the Haganah/Irgun

>For leaders, I would love to see Yizhak Rabin name in there. A >solid tribute to one of the best military leaders in history.

I hope you mean the generals and not the leaders and that you'd rank Yizhak Rabin above Soloman!! Yitzhak Rabin was a brilliant general, but a Neville Chaimberlian-wannabe as PM, who facilitated the blossoming of a terrorist state within Israel's mist. Even as a General, I'd rank Rabin low-- certainly below

Joshua, Devorah, Sampson, David, Joab, Judah Maccabee, Shimon Bar-Kochba (EVERYONE's forgotten about him... but he kicked Roman ass for 3 years), Moshe Dayan etc..

>What about Ashdod! It's the fifth biggest city in Israel!
>Btw, from where are you?

I agree, Ashdod should be there. But I think the Modern Cities should come last on the chart-- after all, they were chronologically established AFTER cities like Hebron, Bethlehem, and Gamla. Granted, the city chart should include importance as well as chronological (i.e. Jerusalem should come before Hebron, even though Hebron's connection is earlier), but just as Shilo isn't important now, Ashdod wasn't important during Israel's golden age as a national entity-- the Davidic Monarchy.

Oh... I'm from many places-- but the best answer would be Philadelphia, in the US. Future Israeli... looking to make aliyah in a few years.

[jdd2007]

very good post, Sefer. you persuaded me on some points, although I had already decided to keep the religious attribute. i cant believe i didnt think of maccabee for the UU! i will also add merkava to the candidates. i think we will have a poll very soon to decide which one to choose.

[Harel]

Modern Israel is the pinnacle of the hebrew people. Their actual size today is not relevent at all. Also, Israel was hardly ever a religious state by definiation (except the time of the Sahandrin). Sure, it was a one-religion nation: but then again, which nation wasn't back then? Israel invented Monotheism first, and that's IT. It's no more religious then the first culture that discover monotheism in Civ. It's NOT religious, and never was a religious state. Religion never dominated our life: for crying out loud, for most of Israel time the absloute majority of Israelies were non-practicing jews! If anything, we are more jewish today then ever.

What it did have was a military and scientific edge, at any given time along all our history. Without doubt, Israel should be a scientific-militaristic nation. We talk about religion all along, but it has very little actual impact on our society and history. We were just the first: that doesn't make us religious.

About your obiviously right-winged titled opinion, it just doesn't hold water. Rabin led the most historically succesful war ever fought on the face of the Earth. By any right he should be up there with Neoploen, Alexander the great and Atila the hon. Dont' let your political opinion get the best of you. Rabin was a tactical genius. He was also the best PM Israel ever had, by any defination (social, economical and political). Israel blossomed under his rule. Unlike now, when we get MORE bombing and the economy is gone.

[Spartan187]

As one of the few Jews on the boards, I'd like to give my opinion on this.

People: Judeans
Name of Civ: Judea
Capitol: Jerusalem
Leader: David Ben-Gurion
CSA: Religious/Commercial (starts with Ceremonial Burial and Alphabet)
Great Leaders: Deborah, Judah Macabee, Dayan, Mofaz
CSU: Zealot - special version of Swordsman with additional movement (3/2/2)

[jdd2007]

although i might change some things, i have already decided that the hebrew/israelis/israelites/and now judeans will be rel/com. this is getting silly. we need to decide this once and for all what this civ should be named. please give your opinion on whether it should be-

-israelis
-isrealites
-hebrews
-judeans
-jews
-other

the reason why i didnt put this into a poll format is because i only want people interested in this thread to post their opinions, as opposed to casual voters who think "israelites" sounds cool.

please put down why you think -blank- should be the name.

[Harel]

Israelies.

With Ben-Gurion as supreme leader.

[Spartan187]

I changed my mind about Judeans, I'm going to have to go with Jews as the plural and Israel as the state now. Here's why.
-"Israelis" does not include all Jews and the contribution of modern Israel to Western civilization as a whole has not been all that significant.
-"Israelites" has several different meanings none of which are really applicable.
-Hebrews is more tribal sounding and Jewish society is much more religious than tribal.
-Judeans refers to the ancient state of Judah which was one of the successors to the Kingdom of David and Saul. Didn't do too much for the world and only lasted for a couple hundred years.
It is not any of the Jewish states which have had a significant impact on Western culture, but the Jewish people as a whole. That is why I think Jews should be used.

[Az]

hi , Harel !
back on the boards ?

I can agree with Harel .


I believe that the name should be hebrews . because could be used on any kingdom during history , that had judaism as it's primary religion , either in Israel , Southern Russia, or the Arabian Peninsula.

Hebrew is our language.
Hebrew was the language of our ancestors that lived in our land.
we were called hebrews when we lived as a country , almost always .

we're called Israelis only now. we were called judeans for a relatively short part of history .

and Ashdod ? a hebrew city ? common .......

[SeferKoheleth]

Civ Name: Hebrews. All other names refer only to a portion of Hebrew history-- Israelites to the Davidic period, Judeans to the Second Commonwealth, Israelis to the modern etc. Only Hebrews remains thoughout as a universal identifier. As a second choice I'd probably choose Jews-- but technically that only refers to the post-Davidic period when 10 of the tribes lost their individualized identities.

Harel- touche with your ad hominem there. I agree Rabin was a good general (although HARDLY in the same categoy as Alexander the Great). You blast my opinion of Rabin as "right wing"-- I'd argue that to call him the greatest PM in history is ridiculously left wing. He signed a pact that has, by nearly EVEYONE's estimation, proved disastourous, making the mistake of trusting Arafat. His economic policies were built on a house of cards, and contributed greatly to Israel's current prediciment by spending, taxing, and regulating too much. Israel's greatest PM has been David Ben-Gurion-- who led them through independence, the great aliyot, and the early struggles to stay free. No question. But Israel's greatest leader in HISTORY was certainly Soloman.

If you think that Jews (or Hebrews) have been a primarily secular people for 2000+ years you are seriously deluded and there's no point arguing the matter. Even in Israel today, I'd argue that only a majority of Ashkenazim as secular. Most Sephardim are traditional and deeply religious, although not "Orthodox" per se.

BTW, I'd suggest two new Wonders, with explanations:

The Great Temple: Gives the benefits of a temple to every city. Immediately gives the advance of Monotheism. Also builds Palace in the city that builds it.
Requires: Mysticism.
Explanation: Built by the Soloman, the Great Temple solidified Jerusalem's place as the Hebrew capital. It also centralized the Hebrew sacrificial cult in one location, eliminating the need to continue worship at paganesque "High Places." Under the reign of Josiah, the alternative worship places were destroyed, and the Temple rededicated.

The Bible: Every Temple functions as a library (note: build BOTH the Temple and the Bible, and get a free temple + library in every city). Also gives the advance of Monotheism.
Requires: Polytheism
Explanation: The study and commentary on the Bible generated a strong system of religious education among Jews, creating near universal literacy.

[Maccabee2]

Hebrew History

King Locutus, perhaps we are already relaxed. It's just a healthy debate, and historical at that, not religious or political as you imagine. Disagreement shows healthy self respect, and debate, carried on with an open mind, results in learning.
I especially appreciate your historical summary, as you can guess by my handle.
Your work shows a great investment of time and study. Thank you.
To clarify the issue of the destruction of a tribe ordered by God, according to the OT ( a document with historical value as well as religious), these people were the Amalekites. Modern archaeology has found remains of the
Amalekites of Saul's day. According to some sources, tests of the remains showed signs of the ravages of an unknown disease. Whether contagious or inherited (congenital) perhaps God was sparing the world from another awful plague.

[Maccabee2]

Hebrews

"Civ Name: Hebrews. All other names refer only to a portion of Hebrew history-- Israelites to the Davidic period, Judeans to the Second Commonwealth, Israelis to the modern etc. Only Hebrews remains thoughout as a universal identifier. As a second choice I'd probably choose Jews-- but technically that only refers to the post-Davidic period when 10 of the tribes lost their individualized identities."

Sefer, you wrote it far better than I could. I must agree whole-heartedly.
Also, thank you for correcting that gentleman about the nature of Jewish culture -- definitely religious-commercial. It has been both the burden and glory of the Hebrew people, some would say even their deliverance, second only to God. Also, Jews would be my second choice as well.