Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Phoenicians and Dutch

[Locutus]

Well, History Guy, I had time to read through your text more carefully and I'm even more impressed than I was the first time, very good stuff

I can't come up with many comments but there are these minor issues:
* Maybe (just maybe) you want to consider adding somewhere that the Phoenicians, when under foreign (mainly Persian) rule, had a large degree of freedom and never really became part of the empires that ruled over them (until Alexander came along, that is). Their rulers needed them too much to suppress them so they were particularly kind to the Phoenicians, taxing them lightly and requesting help from their navy rather than forcing them to provide it. Comparable to the way the Greeks were treated by the Romans.
* Shame on you! So knowlegdeable about Phoenician history and yet you claim Carthage lies in present-day Morocco? Carthage (I personally prefer Carthago, the name used by the Romans and Greeks) lies in Tunesia of course, only a few miles from Tunis. They did have plenty of other colonies in Morocco (and Tunesia, Libya and Algeria) so the mistake is an understandable one.
* As much as I'd like to believe it myself, the claimed circumvention of Africa by Hanno is not backed up with any sort of evidence. Historians are actually divided on whether or not it actually happened (some believe Hanno only sailed to the Gold Coast, thought that was the 'bottom' of Africa and sailed back). It might not be wise to present it as a hard fact (just adding the word 'possibly', 'apparently' or 'allegedly' or whatever somewhere would be sufficient to make it historically 'correct' IMHO).

[History Guy]

Thanks for the compliments, Rasbelin, Ribannah, and Locutus. I edited the post to include those 3 points, thanks for bringing them up, Locutus. Right now I am working on Carthage, and am considering to write short bios of all the great leaders in the game, so that when you play Xerxes and the Persians you can read about how the Captain of the Guard got access to Xerxes' room late one night and assasinated him. ;-)

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Locutus

Carthage (I personally prefer Carthago, the name used by the Romans and Greeks) lies in Tunesia of course, only a few miles from Tunis.

I have even been almost in Carthage/Carthago,
but because of lack of proper knowledge of
public transportation in the Tunis region,
I never visited Carthage/Carthago.
So I have only been to Tunis.
But I have at least been close to it.

According to many who have been there,
there's not so much left to see in these days.
But that's thanks to the second Punic war.

[molly bloom]

A few interesting sites:

https://www.enn.com/yoto/dailynews/1998/10/101598/odyssey.asp

https://www.cedarland.org/phoenicia.html

https://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/grvcrk.html

https://www.askwhy.co.uk/awmike/ac2/AmericaPhoen01.html

(perhaps a pinch of salt needed here)

[Trifna]

Shouldn't we put Vikings OR Dutch? If we are that specific, we should then be as specific with other civs and some would be divided I guess... Or is it that Scandinav countries and Dutch aren't as close as I thought culturally?

[Ribannah]

It is.

[siredgar]

Peter Stuyvesant helped build New York.

I'm curious:
Did he do other things before arriving in New Amsterdam?

I know he was Governor of Curacao and drove the Swedes out of Delaware.

Thanks.

[Trifna]

Originally posted by Ribannah
It is.

Generally, I'm searching arguments Ribannah

I'm not so sure it is. I don't think tha puting every civilization we find we will get a Civ that's at its best...

[Fresno]

I think the leader of the Dutch should be Floris V, William the Silent or Johan van Oldebarnevelt. Personally, I would prefer the last one. A good female leader would be Kenau Hasselaar.

Further I think Hoogeveen isn't a good city to include concerning the province of Drenthe. It is historically totally unimportant. Till WOII, it was nothing but a village. Meppel would be a better city, since it is much older (it is also older as Assen) and it always was the center of trade of Drenthe, especially after the start of the peat industry. For a long time, Meppel and Coevorden were the only cities in Drenthe.

I understand some people don't like to merge the Flemish and the Dutch cities, since Belgium and the Netherlands are separate nations now. But I don't think the national border between the two should be regarded as a cultural border. On both sides people have the same language, the same religion and for a large part the same history. I read someone compared this situation with Spain and Portugal. Well, I think that's a different situation, because Spanish and Portuguese are two historically different peoples; the Flemings and the Dutch are historically the same people. There was a religious difference but things have changed since 1830. The difference between Flemings and Walloons is by now much bigger as the difference between catholic and protestant Dutch.

I think Flemish cities should be included in the list, because the Flemings and the Dutch have virtually the same culture and for a large part the same history.

Furthermore, it would be strange not to have any Flemish cities in the game. Flanders was both economically and culturally one of the most important regions in Europe once, and therefore the Flemish cities have to be in Civ3. Belgium is not going to make it as an independent civ, so this is the only way they have a change to be in the game.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by Locutus
Dry, I'll gladly believe you on your word...

Run for cover! Korea-fans incoming!

LOL, Locutus.



Yes, the Koreans invented the movable type at least two hundred years before Gutenberg. However, his invention had far more influence because the knowledge was shared. Anyhow, when most "Korea fans" discuss the significance of the Korean invention, it is not to take away from Gutenberg's claim to fame. Instead, it's primarily intended to get more attention for the often ignored, yet impressive Korean civilization.

[Fresno]

Is this thread dead already? Shame...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by siredgar
Yes, the Koreans invented the movable type at least two hundred years before Gutenberg. However, his invention had far more influence because the knowledge was shared. Anyhow, when most "Korea fans" discuss the significance of the Korean invention, it is not to take away from Gutenberg's claim to fame. Instead, it's primarily intended to get more attention for the often ignored, yet impressive Korean civilization.

Gutenberg got the fame because an apprentice of Laurens Janszoon Coster, the Dutchman who invented the western version of the Printing Press, stole the invention and brought it to him.

[Beren]

I would make William the Silent Stadholder and not prince. For the Netherlands had stadholders as leaders. UU: Geus, some cheap draft unit.
We are forgetting one great leader:
Jan van Speyk. He blew up his ship in the war against the Belgians.

[Beren]

BTW: I think the Netherlands should be Ind/Com. They were not more expansionistic than other European powers and their tech level was not extremely high.

However, the Dutch religion: Calvinism, which greatly influenced the Dutch culture, encourages hard work. In Holland, it has become a tradition, a part of the culture. So that's why I think it should be Industruos.
I think I don't need to argue the Netherlands were commercial.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Beren
I think I don't need to argue the Netherlands were commercial.

Definition of a Dutchman:
Someone able to buy from a Jew, sell to a Scotsman and still make benefits.