Expansion Pack Civs (Part 4): A never-ending story?

[Jay Bee]

SirEdgar: I'd have the Spanish as religious militaristic though A very popular Spanish motto for centuries was "To God through an Empire"

[Estilpón]

Kkerm / Thai 15 points

thanks Locuts. good work.

[Stefu]

God damn! Someone drop the accursed Polynesians there and fast!

POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! I can't help but thinking that 3/4 votes of Polynesians are based on 'Guns, Germs and Steel' talking about Polynesians! If chapter discussing them had been left out, Polynesians wouldn't have nearly as much points. They were bunch of small, disunited islands in the middle of Pacific ocean which never amounted to much anything. Why the frick should they be in Civ3? I mean, think of starting a Civ3 game on Earth map with Polynesians - you're stuck in one small, one-square island! That offers so many prospects of expansion, wa-hey-hey!

[siredgar]

Yes, the Spanish are definitely militaristic.

Jay Bee,

Originally, I was going to put the Spanish as expansionist and militaristic, but that put them in line with the Vikings and Mongols (and Zulus!) which I don't think is quite right. I put commercial to make them have at least one same trait as the Portuguese.

I definitely think they are expansionist, however. So, maybe they could be expansionist and militaristic or expansionist and religious, but I'm open to militaristic and religious, too. Didn't a lot of European countries use a similar "God, etc" motto, however?

I was having more problems with classifying the Turks and Indo-Malays since I am not too familiar with their civilizations. Anyone want to give it a stab?

Sir Edgar

[Furtigan]

Spanish
Viking
Carthage
Celt
Mongol
Ottoman
Dutch (1/2)
Portuguese (1/2)

and most of all:

Mon Khmer

I lived in Korea and have Korean freinds, but until modern times, Korea was a very small state, it has never controlled an empire or even threatened China or Japan.

The Khmer, in contast, controlled most of the area that is now Burma, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. They were fearsome warriors, and their culture built cities and monuments on a grand scale. Anybody ever heard of Angkor Wat?

Along with the Mongols, they'll even out the Asian area.

[Veracitas]

Originally posted by Furtigan


I lived in Korea and have Korean freinds, but until modern times, Korea was a very small state, it has never controlled an empire or even threatened China or Japan.

Actually, modern Korea is a lot smaller (physically) now than it has been in the past. As I explained in this post , Koguryo (which included roughly what is today north Korea and large portions of Manchuria) was about the size of modern-day France. Continued wars with the neighbouring Chinese Sui dynasty actually caused the collapse of that dynasty, and Koguryo was a major rival to the subsequent Tang Dynasty (though the Chinese eventually won out after allying themselves with another Korean kingdom, Silla). Korea has also threatened Japan several times, as evidenced by the numerous wars fought in ancient/medieval times.

Also, ordered by the Mongolians, the Chinese and Koreans built huge fleets to invade Japan, only to have their fleets sunk by kamikaze (holy storm).

[Jay Bee]

Re: Yes, the Spanish are definitely militaristic.

Originally posted by siredgar
I definitely think they are expansionist, however. So, maybe they could be expansionist and militaristic or expansionist and religious, but I'm open to militaristic and religious, too. Didn't a lot of European countries use a similar "God, etc" motto, however?

Unlike most other civs, the Spanish expansionism was a consequence of their religiousness, i.e. their main reason to expand was a religious one. Militarism was the other great characteristic of the Spanish, and what allowed them to conquer the greatest empire ever. Eight hundred years of continuous struggle against the Muslims created the spirit.

[Corvi #6]

My votes:

Arabs 20
Turk 20
Crete/ Minoans 20
Hittites 20
Tocharians 10
Thai 10
Khmer 10
Mongols 10
Goths 10


The Goths aren't a part of the german sphere any more than the vikings are. Proto-Germanic (or teutonic) split into three distinct sub-families; Western Germanic (German, Dutch, English), Northern Germanic (scandinavian languages) and Eastern Germanic (Gothic- sadly all examples are extinct). As such, the Goths, who ruled an enormous empire from the Baltic to the Black sea long before they conquered Italy, Psain and southern France, have just as much right as the Vikings to be in CivIII, if not more.

[hatless]

here is my votes:

Polynesians 20
Koreans 20
Khmer 20
Turks 20
Ethiopians 20
Thai 10
Inuit 10
Indonesians 10
Vietnamese 10
Aboriginis 10
Tibetans 5
Mali 5

[ranskaldan]

Siamese -20
Khmer +20

[siredgar]

I'd put the Koreans ahead.

Actually, my judgment on the Koreans is primarily based on its pre-17th century history.

For a while, the Koreans had sizeable territory (about the size of Western Europe). They also had unique military units-- hwarangs (archers) and turtle boats (ironclads).

The 15th century, however, is probably when they reached their cultural peak. The ruler, King Sejong, promoted significant literary, philosophical, and scientific advances during this time. This, of course, came prior to its internal stagnation and then contact with the West and a newly modernized Japan.

Anyhow, when most people think of Asia, the three major civilizations come to mind-- China, Japan, and Korea.

Even if you're making a comparison today, Korea beats Cambodia, right?

[WhittyMike]

Thanks, Locutus, for all your hard work. I've placed my votes below, beside a complete list from your spreadsheet. I think you may be able to cut-and-paste the section below right into your Excel spreadsheet.

Spanish, 20
Mongols, 20
Arab
Inca, 20
Vikings, 30
Turks/Ottomans
Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Yes
Maya, 20
Celts, 30
Portuguese
Hebrew/Israelis, 20
Dutch
Ethiopians/Aksumites
Poles, Yes
Koreans, Yes
Byzantines
Polynesians
Mali(ans)
Khmer
Austrians/Austro-Hungarians
Huns
Assyrians
Inuit/Eskimos/Aleutians
Australians
Sioux/Dakota
(Australian) Aborigines
Siamese/Thai
Magyar/Hungarians
Scots, yes
Brazilians
Tibetans
Swedes
Slavs
Sumerians
Annam/Vietnamese
Czech
Serbs
Apache
Neanderthals
Canadians
Goths
Zimbabweans
Minoans
Ukrainians
Indonesians
Welsh
Nubians/Ku****es
Hittites
Italians
Irish, Yes
Native Americans/American Indians
Fins
Holy Romans/Catholics/Vaticans
Scandinavians
Argentinians
Swiss
Tartars
Ghanaians/Accrans
Trojans
Latvians
Olmec
Nigerians/Swagilians
Crown of Aragorn
Cubans
Kazakhs
Harappans/Dravidians/Indus People
Songhai
Maori
Californians
Berbers/Moors
Mexicans
Anasazi
Amazonians (Native Brazilians)
Armenians
Danes
Etruscs
Filipinos
Swahili/Kilwans
Belgians
Confederates, Yes
Iraqis
Norwegians
Cherokee
South East Asians
Muslims/Near East Asians
Uzbek/LithuUzbek
Texans, Yes
Boers
Iberians
Iranians
Philistinians
Macedonians
Hmong
South Africans
Virginians
Hawaiians
Al-Alandalus
Almerienses
Bangladeshis
Bedouin
Cartagenians (from Cartagena)
Castilla-Leon/Castillians
Pygmy
Seljuks
Singaporeans
Snake Mounds
Ugandians
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Navaho
Yankees
Algonquiens
Bulgarians
Manchu(rian)s
Sub-Saharans
Mesopotamians
Galactic Emperials (Star Wars)
New Zealanders
Bantu
Caribbeans
Geordie
Hopi
Javans
Mon
Teutons
Tunguz
Tunisians
Quebecois
Columbians
Slovakians
Palestinians
Sámi
Hospitaliers
Fatty Lumpkins
Khwarizm

==============================
One sidebar comment: I've given most of my votes to the Civs that I think should be added to an expansion pack. Some other Civs that I would like to play, but that I don't think would make good additions for most people, I've included with a "Yes" (which should not mess up a cut-and-paste into the spreadsheet). I would give them a single-point vote, but Locutus' rules indicate a 20 vote mininum (probably to reduce the amount of ballot counting for him). Locutus doesn' t have to count them, of course.

A plug for the Celts: Although breaking out separate nationalities for the Scots, Irish, Welsh, etc. would be fun in a British Isles scenario, for purposes of this game they're arguably a single civilization, and we've got a much better chance that they'll be included if we unite as Celts (kind of like the Scots and the Irish getting together in the movie Braveheart, but hopefully with more success).

A counter-plug for the Arabs: Not to knock the accomplishments of the Caliphate, but the Bedouins, Yemenis, and other natives of the Arabian peninsula just didn't have enough resources (in the pre-petroleum age) to conquer what became known as the Arab world. They *did* have the resources, and the motivation and religious zeal, to conquer Mesopotamia, and that made all the difference. I would put the Arab civilization into the context of the game by considering them to be the Babylonians with Monotheism. If the game could be set up so that, upon gaining Monotheism, the Babylonian player would have the option of setting off a revolution to convert into the Arab civilization, with a separate UU and another Golden Age, then I think everyone ought to be satisfied. I don't know if that's possible, however.

Other optional conversions into new Civilizations might include the Romans into the Italians (triggered by some advance from the Rennaissance period, or building Leonardo's Workshop) and the English into the British (triggered by absorbing the Celts! ).

[LoD]

WhittyMike: err, you can award a civ 20 points at most, not at least.

[biggreenthingy]

Thanks for doing all this.

My vote is

Poles 20
Turks 20
Spainish 20
Celts 20
Mongols 20
Dutch 20
Inca 20
Amazons 20

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Stefu
God damn! Someone drop the accursed Polynesians there and fast!

POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! I can't help but thinking that 3/4 votes of Polynesians are based on 'Guns, Germs and Steel' talking about Polynesians! If chapter discussing them had been left out, Polynesians wouldn't have nearly as much points. They were bunch of small, disunited islands in the middle of Pacific ocean which never amounted to much anything. Why the frick should they be in Civ3? I mean, think of starting a Civ3 game on Earth map with Polynesians - you're stuck in one small, one-square island! That offers so many prospects of expansion, wa-hey-hey!

Absolutely!
The same for Sioux and Iroquis...