Scottish Civ for Civ3 expansion pack!

[Dinner]

The purpose of this thread is to explore the possibilities for a Scottish civ in the Civ3 expansion pack. I personally am shocked that Sid didn't include the Scots so I'm hoping he rectifies this error by including them in the expansion pack that we all know is coming. So without further a-do let's get on with my proposal:
I think the Scots should be a Scientific and Industrious society. A short list of the inventions of Scotsmen would include the Television (John Baird), Penicillin (Alexander Fleming), the Bicycle (Kirkpatrick MacMillan), the steam engine (James Watt; who also helped write early electrical theory), the pneumatic tire (John Dunlop), the repeating rifle (Captian Patrick Ferguson), & the telephone (Alexander Graham Bell; born and educated in Scotlabd but later moved to America).
Just reading that list it becomes clear the Scots should be a scientific civilization, but why should they be industrious? Well, the industrious attribute seems to best comply with the "Hard work and thrift" philosophy that is so apart of the Scottish psyche. Plus the combination of Scientific & Industrious hasn't yet been filled by any other civ (Chinese where changed to Military & Industrious) so the Scots would be filling a vacant place in Civ3.
Their special unit should be The Highlander. The Highlander would be a regular swordsman who has a +1 movement bonus to reflect the superior maneuverability of the Highlander armies. In the middle ages several English armies arrived to do combat only to find the Highlanders were either gone or had flanked them. So a plus one to movement would be historically accurate and wouldn't unbalance the game.
The civ's golden age could be set off the building of the Adam Smith's trading company wonder. This makes sense because Adam Smith was a Scotsman plus his book "On the Wealth of Nations" and his trading company where both from Scotland. This would also historically comply with what could best be described as the Scottish golden age (the Post Napoleonic period of Europe).
So what do you folks think?

[Dinner]

oh yeah....

The male leader could be William Wallace or King James VI while the female leader would be Mary Stuart (as in Mary Queen of Scots). I think I would prefer to have James as the default head of state and William Wallace (a la Braveheart) to be the "great general" or special leader or what not.

[mactbone]

"Are you Mary Queen of Scots?"
"I am"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"
"I think she's dead."
"No, I'm not"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash" *clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"

[Dauphin]

I think the Spanish and Mongols should be in before the Scots

Having Scots as a civ as distinguished from the English is a good idea. Unfortunately the two nations got a bit too entangled and many people can't tell the difference.

I won't make a list of English famous scientists and inventors, it would take up too many pages.

[monolith94]

Yeah and I think that the Incas would be better then the Iroquis but then again if wishes were horses beggars would ride. . .

[Dinner]

Originally posted by MacTBone
"Are you Mary Queen of Scots?"
"I am"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"
"I think she's dead."
"No, I'm not"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash" *clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"

LOL! Yes, I too am a Monty Pytheon fan....

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I think the Spanish and Mongols should be in before the Scots

Having Scots as a civ as distinguished from the English is a good idea. Unfortunately the two nations got a bit too entangled and many people can't tell the difference.

I won't make a list of English famous scientists and inventors, it would take up too many pages.

Yes, We should consider the Spanish and Mongols for inclusion, however, having one civs or the other is not mutually exclusive. The truth is there is room for all three. Plus the 70+ votes that have been made for the Celts/Scots/Irish prove that there is a strong demand for some sort of Celt/Scots/Irish civ out there.
Celts are just the generic ancient name for Scots & Irish (plus other tribes such as Picts). There for the expansion pack should include one of the civs in this group; I personally, would like to see it be the Scots because they have the strongest historical base of the three from which we can work from. Also thanks to movies such as "Braveheart" and "Rob Roy" most people in the English speaking world are atleast some what familiar with the Scots.
Plus it would be so colorful to have Highlanders running around in Kilts.

[mactbone]

Ach Blarney stones, the Irish are better! Can the Scottish claim that they had a monk (maybe a Saint) who sailed to the New World and made it back? And then wrote it all in a book? I think not. Plus the Irish have their independence! Hmmm, I don't know a whole lot about Irish History, but they have thrown off at least three foreign rulers/ruling nations. I'm positive that they're better than the Scottish

[Dinner]

Originally posted by MacTBone
Ach Blarney stones, the Irish are better! Can the Scottish claim that they had a monk (maybe a Saint) who sailed to the New World and made it back? And then wrote it all in a book? I think not. Plus the Irish have their independence! Hmmm, I don't know a whole lot about Irish History, but they have thrown off at least three foreign rulers/ruling nations. I'm positive that they're better than the Scottish

Well, the Scots got more points and more votes in the Apolyton poll. But don't take it hard lad... You could always join the IRA.

[Alexander I]

A better leader for the Scots than William Wallace would undoubtedly be Robert the Bruce, who actually won.

However, if there is even a CivIII expansion, I would consider the Celts as a far more likelihood than the Scots by themselves. But since the English are "Britain" in CivIII, it's quite possible that all the Scottish, Welsh and Irish cities are included with them.

(In the 1100s, Henry II became Lord of Ireland, and it stayed that way till 1916, I believe. Wales was conquered in the 1300s by Edward I, and Scotland was united with England in the 1700s, having been ruled as a dual monarchy for a time, (James I and VI of England and Scotland, etc.) it became Queen Anne of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, until the Irish had to run off with Eamon deValera, the Irish Hitler, and some other rubbish.)

[Dinner]

City names

In order to keep the application of the Scottish Civ rolling I took the top 32 names of Scottish cities from Call to Power II. It's interesting to note that both CTPI and CTPII include the Scots but Civ3 will not. Say what you will about the CTP series but they at least got one thing right....

Capital: Glasgow.

Other cities: Edinburgh, Stirling, Perth, Falkirk, Dunbar, Muir of Ord, Gairlock, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Cowdenbeath, Nairn, Bathgate, Linlithgow, Iverness, Melrose, Rothsay, Monifeth, Aviemore, Kirkaaldy, fraserburgh, Portlethen, Glenrothes, Dufftown, Findhorn, Borgue, Lockerbie, Dalkeith, Gretna, Dingwall, Glasgowl.

[Dinner]

I see that I shall have to reinforce my argument in several way if I wish to gain acceptance. So let me respond to your last post and then I shall go over a few new points.

Originally posted by Alexander01
A better leader for the Scots than William Wallace would undoubtedly be Robert the Bruce, who actually won.

Your right Robert the Bruce would make a better head of State then William Wallace. Wallace could then be used as the nation's great war leader or general.

However, if there is even a CivIII expansion, I would consider the Celts as a far more likelihood than the Scots by themselves. But since the English are "Britain" in CivIII, it's quite possible that all the Scottish, Welsh and Irish cities are included with them.

I will respond to the Celts part below, however, I just check the Civ3 web site and it most surely lists an "English" civ and not a "British" one. If the civ's name was British then I would drop my petetion for the inclusion of Scotland (because the term Britian would include both England & Scotland) but since they don't then I have reasonable grounds to prosue the inclusion of Scotland. If England can be seporate then so can Scotland.

Point #1 Why Should the Term Scots and not Celts be used?
This is because there has never been any civilization named "Celts". Celtic is simply a language sub group (of which there are many sub-sub groups) of the Indoeuropean family not a nation. The Celtic language group streched from eastern China, south to Asia Minor and northwest to the British Isles. The largest and most populous country that more or less is a part of this sub-group is Scotland.

Point #2 Why should Scotland be differentiated from England?
The first reason is because it was a seporate country for atleast 1700 of the approximately 2000 years of recorded history in the British Isles. The Second reason is because the U.N. Education, Scientific, & Cultural Organization (UNESCO) considers Scotland to be culturally distinct from England with several "World Heritage Sites" (such as St. Kilda, Hadrian's Wall, old towne Edinbourgh, & the Orkney Islands' Neolithic monuments) considered to be major contributions to world culture (let us remember culture is very import in Civ3).

Point #3 But didn't the English conquer the Scottish?
Scotland has a proud history of Independence which began when they repulsed the invading Roman Legions (the English were conquered by the Romans). The English did speratically invade (1st invasion in 1160 with dozens following) and attempt to rule Scotland during the middle ages but they were never able to hold on to it. By 1314 the the English throw in the towel and once again recognized Scottish independance. In an interesting twist of fate in 1603 Elizabeth I (of England) died without an heir so James Stuart (King of Scotland) became the legal ruler of England as well. Thus, in a way, the Scottish took over the English and not vica versa.

[Alexander I]

I understand the points you are trying to make, Oerdin. I myself am a student of Scottish history.

However, in CivIII, the English civilization's nation name is Britain. (Like the Greek civilization's is Greece). So it appears the goose is already cooked.

I would also like to see te Scots, but in a game like CivIII it's not feasible. I can't visualize Firazis including smaller civilizations like CTP had (Jamaicans! ). That's why they chose Britain, I think.

I know the Scots have been independent for a long time; I know they have a different culture. They even have a different language, Scots, which although it is very similar to English, it is not the same. It developed separately over the course of time. Sort of like Danish and Swedish. They are different, but similar enough to be understood most of the time (though you'll have a fit trying to understand some of those true highlanders).

And there was a true Celtic culture. The La Tene Celt culture existed in present day France, Germany, and northern Italy while Rome was still keeping Hannibal's elephants out of its hair.

There really were a people known as the Celts, but it is also a wide-reaching name - Britons, Scots, Irish, Picts, welsh, Gauls, Bretons. They're all Celts.

Just like Germans can refer to lots of groups or to a specific civ. "Germanic" peoples and so on.

Does this all make sense?

[Dauphin]

However, in CivIII, the English civilization's nation name is Britain. (Like the Greek civilization's is Greece). So it appears the goose is already cooked.

It is only a text error that can be rectified. Many have said it before but its an unforgivable error. I only hope Firaxis correct it before shipping.

If they have used English and British interchangeably throughout the whole process then it might be substantially harder, aswell as damned annoying.

[Saint Marcus]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25511

Civ: Scots
Capital: Glasgow
Leader: Mary Stuart
Attributes: Sci Ind
Special units: Highlander (swordsmen), Schiltron (pikemen)

Cities:
- Glasgow
- Edinburgh
- Stirling
- Perth
- Falkirk
- Dunbar
- Muir of Ord
- Gairlock
- Aberdeen
- Kilmarnock
- Cowdenbeath
- Nairn
- Bathgate
- Linlithgow
- Iverness
- Melrose
- Rothsay
- Monifeth
- Aviemore
- Kirkaaldy
- Fraserburgh
- Portlethen
- Glenrothes
- Dufftown
- Findhorn
- Borgue
- Lockerbie
- Dalkeith
- Gretna
- Dingwall

Leaders
- Robert
- Wallace
- MacAlpin
- MacBeth

Does anyone know any other Scottisch Great Leaders?