Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why Poland SHOULD be included in one of the official sets

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    UberKruX: Nice ideas! Personally, I'd be deciding between Gniezno (the original capital) and Warsaw as "HQs". And I'd choose either kings Mieszko I (or Mieczyslaw I as you say), Kazimierz Wielki (Casimir the Great), Wladyslaw (Vladislav) Jagiello and Jozef Pilsudski (the latter not being a king, but IMHO Poland's greatest XXth century leader).
    Most Poles would say that a special unit would be the husaria. The husaria was a kind of lightly-moderately armored cavalry, which had a special feature - attached to the back plate of each rider were two vertical curved poles (not Poles ) with horizontally placed feathers (I'll find a picture of that to better illustrate the thing). This contraption generated a very loud and ominous sound when the rider was in motion. Increased in magnitude when hundreds of riders were charging simultaneously, this provided for a shattering psychological effect.
    However, I find your idea about the artillery very original, and frankly, I think you have a better special unit concept.

    Col Bigspear: Thanks. Nice to see some support here .
    My personal advice BTW - I'd not pick Stanislaus Leszczynski (if we're talking about the same guy), since he was a very week king.

    jsw363: Nice to hear you're a supporter .

    Was Poland really the largest country in Europe? I could understand that it's larger than France and Spain, but the Hapsburg Empire? The HRE? Russia? Also frankly, I don't remember it being a major player in European History. Also didn't they have a feudal system of agriculture far longer than Western Europe? I don't know if it's possible to have a "prospering economy" if many people are serfs. Admittedly I'm not an expert on Polish history, so could someone clarify all this for me?
    I'm 100% sure that it was in its time. Russia was not always that big - think about the fact that it was countered from the east by Tatars. As for the other countries, if they would be bigger than Poland then, then Europe would have to be as twice as big to fit them all in .
    Yes, Poland had a system that become anachronicl after some time. However this allowed it to become a leading producer of food crops ("The Granary of Europe", I think what it was called). Of course eventually the progressively more popular conservatism among the nobility halted the necessary reforms, until it was too late.
    Also think about the fact that in almost all European countries in the XVIth - XVIIth century most people were serfs.


    DarkCloud: Russia has been included to the original set of civilizations, so you don't have to worry about that .

    krzysiek: Heh, milo w koncu spotkac rodaka na tych forach .

    Arent: Hey there ! What's up friend? And no, I'm argueing more about a Panpolonian Confederacy .

    Christantine The Great: Unfortunely, krzysiek picked the wrong time frame. You're right, Poland in the XVIIIth century was very weak, on the verge of disintegration. It has also lost a lot of wars, so the map he is presenting is not the best example. As I've said, I'll try to find a better one.

    LoD
    I love the tick of the Geiger counter in the morning. It's the sound of... victory! :D
    LoD - Owner/Webmaster of civ.org.pl
    civ.org.pl's Discussion Forums and Multiplayer System for SMAC and Civs 2-4

    Comment


    • #17
      Ok the map wasn't good enough, but I couldn't find a better one on the Internet.

      One more interesting fact. Poland during its golden age didn't explore "new worlds" by building fleet and crossing the ocean (like Portugal, Spain, etc.) or tried to expand to western Europe. East was of primary interest for Poland.

      Comment


      • #18
        krzysiek: Alright. I'd tried to search for that too and so far found no satisfying results as well.
        Yes, exactly. And that's the reason it's not mentioned much in the Western European and American history textbooks.

        All (who are not Poles ): I'm surprised that no one so far guessed who I meant when writing this:

        Probably the most famous one is a guy that revolutionized a lot of areas of life with his brave but simple theory. Can you guess who?
        Here's a hint: this man is represented by a Wonder of the World which appeared in both Civilization I and II.

        Meanwhile, here's a picture of a husar's armor:



        LoD
        I love the tick of the Geiger counter in the morning. It's the sound of... victory! :D
        LoD - Owner/Webmaster of civ.org.pl
        civ.org.pl's Discussion Forums and Multiplayer System for SMAC and Civs 2-4

        Comment


        • #19
          What exactly was the reason for the hussar's wings? If he ever lost his horse I doubt he'd fly off the battlefield unharmed.
          "I agree with everything i've heard you recently say-I hereby applaud Christantine The Great's rapid succession of good calls."-isaac brock
          "This has to be one of the most impressive accomplishments in the history of Apolyton, well done Chris"-monkspider (Refering to my Megamix summary)
          "You are redoing history by replaying the civs that made history."-Me

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by LoD
            Here's a hint: this man is represented by a Wonder of the World which appeared in both Civilization I and II.
            LoD
            Copernicus!
            CSPA

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Gangerolf
              What's kielbasa?
              basically polish sausage.
              "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
              - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

              Comment


              • #22
                Christantine the Great: Heh, and this proves that Poles were also pioneers in aviation . Seriously - like I've said before - the wings produced a very weird and loud sound, which, when coupled a hundred- or even a thousandfold, generated a devastating psychological effect (the Tartars thought that charging husars were demons ).


                Gangerolf: Exactly ! Now guys, admit which one of you didn't know about it ?

                LoD
                I love the tick of the Geiger counter in the morning. It's the sound of... victory! :D
                LoD - Owner/Webmaster of civ.org.pl
                civ.org.pl's Discussion Forums and Multiplayer System for SMAC and Civs 2-4

                Comment


                • #23
                  RUS is NOT RUSSIA!
                  Rus is a proud nation which existed from 988-1688 in some form or another, Kiev was the original center of Russian Civilization... however, the RUSians are different from the RUSSians. The Russians are not as technically advanced as the RUSians

                  The RUSians were taken over by the Cossacks in 1688 and wrested from Polish Control (1400-1600), the Cossacks formed a neo-RUSian state... The Cossacks were Ukrainian to an extent...

                  oh, and it is Mieskowz I But he was merely known as the first king who introduced Christianity to Poland (interestingly enough I know a Mieskowzki in real life)

                  Also interesting is the Polish system of Kingship, their kings were elected!
                  -->Visit CGN!
                  -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    DarkCloud, it was little more complicated. In 10-th century not every ruler of a country could be a king. Mieszko I (between 920 and 940-992) was only a prince. His son "Boleslaw Chrobry" was the first King of Poland (became king in 1025, several weeks before his death).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      DarkCloud: Ah, so you mean what we call "Kiev Rusia". Well, it was important but I don't think to that extent that it outqualifies Poland .
                      And you're right, free elections were carried out after the death of the last representant of the Jagiellonian dynasty. They were effective until the 3rd May Constitution, which brought back the succesion rights (it was because the privilage of free election was abused by the nobelty, which forced promises of new rights for them by the candidates for monarchy). By the way, the said constitution was signed in year 1791, which makes it second in the World.

                      krzysiek: Of course you're right, Mieszko I was never a king. I can only justify myself by saying that I wrote that automatically since he was first reffered to as king in this thread. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.

                      LoD
                      I love the tick of the Geiger counter in the morning. It's the sound of... victory! :D
                      LoD - Owner/Webmaster of civ.org.pl
                      civ.org.pl's Discussion Forums and Multiplayer System for SMAC and Civs 2-4

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DarkCloud
                        Also interesting is the Polish system of Kingship, their kings were elected!
                        Well this was quite common in europe at that time (only nobility could vote though...) eventualy it was replaced by dynasties, which when left whitout hiers was replaced by a new king (elected), I dont know if they got to dynasties in poland, but I think so.

                        Also the polish parlament (they where also common in europe at the time, although called other things, like Riechstag, Riksdag, Sejm, etc) was unique in one way: There had to be 100% of the votes behind a sugestion if it was to pass, and as every little country lord had a vote, not much got changed (which proved fatal in the war of 1655 whit the Swedes, although the poles managed to throw out the Swedish invador, whit the help of 5 allies and a massive peasent rebelion)...

                        This was all after thier "Golden Age" though.
                        Before that Poland (and the Polish-Lituanian Comonwealth in particular) where one of the most powerfull nations in europe.
                        Thier knights (Hussars, or Hussaria) where definatly the best ones in europe (but they where still using them in the mid 1600's, when they where horribly outdated).

                        Hmm, forgot the point whit all of this, just recalling the stuff I know about Poland
                        No Fighting here, this is the war room!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by krzysiek
                          DarkCloud, it was little more complicated. In 10-th century not every ruler of a country could be a king. Mieszko I (between 920 and 940-992) was only a prince. His son "Boleslaw Chrobry" was the first King of Poland (became king in 1025, several weeks before his death).
                          Thank you for correcting me.

                          ---
                          But the RUSians The people of RUS conquered all the Kievan eras and owned the area between Vladimir (near Moscow) to near Byzantine.

                          I am also lead to believe that they were guards for the Byzantines at one point...

                          But, you could probably argue that the Vikings technically ruled them after 1200 then the polish around 1400 until the nearly-idigenous Cossaks came
                          -->Visit CGN!
                          -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DarkCloud
                            But, you could probably argue that the Vikings technically ruled them after 1200 then the polish around 1400 until the nearly-idigenous Cossaks came
                            Vikings ceased to exist around 1000 AD
                            Last edited by Henrik; September 20, 2001, 23:01.
                            No Fighting here, this is the war room!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Poland is some puny country in Eastern Europe, which was never powerful and who's only inventions are kielbasa and pierogies
                              ...and what is wrong with kielbasa and pierogies?

                              ROFL

                              ...on a more serious note, if it is 16 the numbers of the civs we should have to choose, Poland would definitely not be one of them. I'd add another pre-colombian civilization in America (Mayan seem good, but what about Tolteks?) and maybe the Spaniards - they were heavily influental nonetheless. And maybe Mongols too - they practically had the worlds biggest empire for ages.

                              But some should go... well, either the Franks or the Germans... and also the Iroquis (even though I admire their political system).

                              Definitely, not Polish. Celts, Vikings (no, they didn't stop existing after 10nth century AD - where the heck do you think the Skandinavian people derive from???) and many Asian civilizations are probably in front of Poland as well.

                              My main objection is still the Zulu thing! Damned, Ethiopian, Numides or even Libyans would be a far better representation of black africa. Why the big zero Zulus???
                              Non-Leader of the Apolyton Anarchist Non-Party

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Henrik:
                                There had to be 100% of the votes behind a sugestion if it was to pass, and as every little country lord had a vote, not much got changed (which proved fatal in the war of 1655 whit the Swedes, although the poles managed to throw out the Swedish invador, whit the help of 5 allies and a massive peasent rebelion)...
                                Ah, yes, the infamous liberum veto. The eventual killer of Poland.
                                We had 5 allies? Wow, didn't know about that .



                                Ubik:
                                and what is wrong with kielbasa and pierogies?
                                Ah, a connaisseur of Polish cuisine I see ...

                                I'd add another pre-colombian civilization in America (Mayan seem good, but what about Tolteks?)
                                IMHO there are enough Native American cis already. With all due respect, the name of the game is Civilization, not Extinct Tribe .

                                and maybe the Spaniards - they were heavily influental nonetheless. And maybe Mongols too - they practically had the worlds biggest empire for ages.
                                Those I agree with. But they are only two slots out of 16.

                                Vikings (no, they didn't stop existing after 10nth century AD - where the heck do you think the Skandinavian people derive from???)
                                Exactly, derive from, not are.

                                and many Asian civilizations
                                For example?


                                LoD
                                I love the tick of the Geiger counter in the morning. It's the sound of... victory! :D
                                LoD - Owner/Webmaster of civ.org.pl
                                civ.org.pl's Discussion Forums and Multiplayer System for SMAC and Civs 2-4

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X