China turned from scientific to militaristic?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by PGM
I like the change. Also, the powerful Rider fits a militaristic civ well. But obviously, the UU needs a new name.

SU's appear later in the game are more powerful than earlier ones. Will the F-15 make the US a militaristic culture?

[lihb]

Originally posted by Harlan

Its hard to argue with Art of War, but with Great Wall, one could make the argument that its precisely the non-militaristic civ that would build a great wall so they can keep other civs from invading, and thus ignore war as much as possible. So it could be seen as one of the least militaristic wonders out there.

the basic principle of "Art of War" was not how to kill your enemies and win the war, but is how to win the war without sending army to the battlefield.

Here is what Sun Tze said : "make you country strong in strategy(economy and politic) so that no one want to be your enemy, that is the best way.
If the best way are not able to be achieved, try to solve the conflict, and win it in a diplomatic way. That is the second best way. If both are not possible, then send your army to the battlefield. This is the worst way. You should avoid it if you can."

I think, if it were Sun Tze who play the civ game, he will choose a commercial+industrious civ(assume that he had no idea about science), instead of a militaristic+industrious one. He will focus on domestic affairs, try to make his country rich and productive, and in the meanwhile he will keep a strong force to defense the border. When it's time to take over enemy's cities, he will use diplomat of spy to bribe first, when this fail then use the force.

I don't think Chinese should be categorized as militaristic in this sense.

[lihb]

There are a few reasons that I think Chinese should not be a militaristic civ.
1. most of the time, in history of Chinese, warrior were never be the ruling class in society, it were the literate person who administrate the country.
2. There is a proverb is China : "good man never go to army". Why? because good man should learn hard and pass the examination and become an officer. Only those whose parent are unable to let their children have education will let their boy go to army.
3. There are two period in history of China when the territory expand(Han and Tang dynasty), but the expansion were following the trade road. Commercial or expansionist
are more suitable.
4. Even the communist China today take the economy growth as the first goal.

I think Chinese is more(scientific, industrious, commercial, expansionist) than
(militaristic, religious)

[Chow Yun Fat]

lihb, my opinion of Chinese civ attributes differs from you.
(edited: After I write the message, I find that my opinion to be nearly the same as yours! )

There is no doubt that Chinese had made much discovery in science and had thriving commerce activities. However,
do you remember the Chinese ranking of 'Scholar, Farmer, Craftsman, Merchant'?

I don't know why China can still advance in the past with our emphasis on literary scholars.

If we base on acheivments to assign civ attributes, China may be commercial, scientific, and industrious.

China rarely if ever seeked to expand her territory. She may want to get more vassals but nearly never desired to directly rule over them.

I don't have have much studies on military aspects of China but I am quite sure that China valued literary achievments more than military.

Chinese emperors were usually treated as appointees by gods to rule over the world but we did not do as much as the Egyptians or Aztecs to honor the gods.

The closest attributes that applied will be scientific and industrious. As writing can be considered as a scientific advance , Chinese can be considered as scientific.
To account for the vast production capability pre-industrial era, I choose industrious as the other attribute.

For the commercial attributes, China usually imported only luxury goods from 'barbarians' for a long time. We just did not feel the need for trading for scarce resource.

[lihb]

Originally posted by Gramphos
It is because China should be able to start their Golden age by building the Great Wall.

I have an ideal. Why don't make the wonders that trigger the golden age be
independent of the civ attributes?
Such that Chinese don't have to be a militaristic+industrious civ, and
still can have their golden by building a militaristic+industrious wonder.

For example, every civ have a list of wonder which can trigger golden age.
And the list is build base on two rule:
1. The civ that actually build this wonder must have this wonder in their
list.
2. The number of wonder in different era
in the lists is nearly to be same for every civ.

So, Chinese will have great wall, art of war,
grand canal plus some others in their list.
and American will have Hover Damn, Seti, Apollo, Manhattan plus some other
in their list.
Is doesn't matter if this civ fit the wonder attributes. As long as the
civ build them, they get a golden age or half golden age.

In this way a civ don't have to have a attribute that not fit
them(militaristic for Chinese, for example) to make the wonder that they
actually build in real history to be their golden age wonder(great wall
for Chinese, for example).

-----------------------------
may those death rest in peace.......

[GuangRong]

I agreed that Chinese is no doubt industrious, however the other ability can be any of the others, it depends on which point in China's history you take. E.g

Shang- Comerical/industrious
Zhou -Industrious/religious
Qin - Militristic/Industrious/Expansionist?
Former Han- Miltaristic/expansionist
Later Han-Comercial/Industrious/expansionist?


Even within a single Dynasty, there's a diffrence, when it was just founded, or during its decline .

Most dynasties (except the Sung) starts out Militaristic/?? . but after settling down., they all become Comercial/ ??

[Urban Ranger]

How's Zhou religious? They might be somewhat superstitious, but there was never any organised native Chinese religion.

The most militaristic periods were when the country were split, such as the Three Kingdoms period or the Warring States period. Overall though Imperial China was not militaristic at all.


lihb,

"I have an ideal. Why don't make the wonders that trigger the golden age be
independent of the civ attributes?"

That's a good idea.

[Leonidas]

I don't know about the past, but lately China has been building one kick-butt military force. . .

[lihb]

Originally posted by Leonidas
I don't know about the past, but lately China has been building one kick-butt military force. . .

base on this, US and Russia should be more militaristic than China.
i think, from the way they use the military force in their history, include present, expansionist is a better word to describe chinese, contrary to WWII German, WWII Japanese and Genkis Khan Mongol.

[Leonidas]

lihb: I was just joking about China - I guess Firaxis has been reading too many newspapers. . .

[Arent]

I feel uneasy about this.
If I think of China I think of peaceful gardens with some Confucius-like philosoph in -
I don't think of Mao or dictatorship - and they will get back to the peaceful times some day in the future! *grmbl*
Give them scientific-industrious and make Persians militaristic/commercial thus we have all combinations.

Arent

[Urban Ranger]

I don't think Firaxis is going to fix it now, since it's too much of a hassle.

I still think lihb's idea of separating civ-specific ability from wonders is a good one.

[JellyDonut]

It was probably changed to militaristic for game-balance reasons. Perhaps they thought scientific/industrious was too powerful. I know I was going to play them in my first game, but now I don't know.

[DarkCloud]

CHINA did NOT invent Gunpowder! They invented Powder for Fireworks!

[DarkCloud]

And Urban Ranger- Commercial might be good, but remember that China shut themselves away from the world after about 1500... If one would consider the ancient ages commerical may be good- but I think Scientific-Expansion would be best