The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Schee]

KoR :

Go is not more intellectual than chess! Go is nothing compared to chess? I haven't even heard of go!

It only confirms you are idiotic.

I am white and of European descent but I can't tell the difference between French and German people

I am European and I can tell the difference.



Et en passant, Korea s'écrit Corée en Français...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
the concept of go/paduk is to eliminate the other player's pieces by capturing them.

The main goal is to control more enclosed territory than your opponent at the end of the game. Captured stones count, too, but that's a by-product of the war for land. Since the game starts with an empty board, go has much more in common with Civ than chess does.

much easier than chess to learn.
much harder than chess to master.

Well, both games are very easy to learn and hard to master.
While the Go board is larger, the different chess pieces allow for more tactical concepts. It's hard to say which game is tougher to the human mind.

[King of Rasslin]

I went to a go web site. It said Confucious thought it was a waste of time. It apparently is, if even a native of China (and a master teacher) thinks so.

Chess has always been considered the king of games. There can be only one!

[thinkingamer]

I went to a go web site. It said Confucious thought it was a waste of time. It apparently is, if even a native of China (and a master teacher) thinks so.

I bet Jesus could have said the same thing to Chess. Any game is a waste of time to moralists, monks, etc.

Well, both games are very easy to learn and hard to master.

Well, my dad's level in Go is 2k (a decent level) and according to him, u don't have a right to compare Chess w/ Go unless u r at least 10k in Go. Im pretty decent in Chess (1700s in Yahoo Chess) and only a 18k in Go, but i know that Go is MUCH harder to be good at it.

[King of Rasslin]

Bah! Go is so simple. 2 colors of stones and you just have to surrond others and take territory. There have been entire BOOKS written on chess. Now try to understand that. Go is kinda like Tic Tac Toe, if you can see the similarity. Chess is a whole other world. Ask any Russian what is the second greatest thing in life (behind vodka) and he will tell you it is Chess.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by thinkingamer
Well, my dad's level in Go is 2k (a decent level) and according to him, u don't have a right to compare Chess w/ Go unless u r at least 10k in Go. Im pretty decent in Chess (1700s in Yahoo Chess) and only a 18k in Go, but i know that Go is MUCH harder to be good at it.

Thinkingamer, I take it that that's 2-kyu amateur. Not really that high.

By your own words, you have no right to compare the two.
A rating of 1700 at Chess is pretty average, not much higher than 18-kyu at Go. I'd say try to comment on my comparison again when you've reached a FIDE rating of 2450 (Master level) and the equivalent at Go (1-dan professional). Or your father, of course.
KoR, there are lots of Go books, too, including quite a few already by western players.

[thinkingamer]

Ribannah, can u teach me go?

[thinkingamer]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Thinkingamer, I take it that that's 2-kyu amateur. Not really that high.

By your own words, you have no right to compare the two.
A rating of 1700 at Chess is pretty average, not much higher than 18-kyu at Go. I'd say try to comment on my comparison again when you've reached a FIDE rating of 2450 (Master level) and the equivalent at Go (1-dan professional). Or your father, of course.
KoR, there are lots of Go books, too, including quite a few already by western players.

I agree ur logic; i guess i was only expressing my fathers opinion.

Note: i don't have a Go board, no Go opponent (father gave up playing Go), no Go teacher, but only 2 Go books. According what i know, 18k -1k (lower the better) and 1k is the highest (Don't know what exactly k is). And among 1ks there are 1d-9d (Which is for professionals, higher the better). By professional Go standard, my father is a certain amateur, but as an average player i think its decent.

And by the way, i learned Chess rules by a friend, and i learned to be good at Chess in Yahoo Chess. I don't know anything about Professional Chess rating or anything of that sort....I told my score in Yahoo Chess to prove that i have some knowledge of Chess.
In Yahoo Chess, u r average if u r 1200-1499, above average if u r 1500-1799, advanced if u r 1800-2099, and expert if u r 2100+.

[Ribannah]

If you're serious, the best way to learn is to study the games of the top-level players, and seek the intention behind every single move.
Play against opponents who are 1-3 kyu stronger than you. Take your time, and never place a stone just because it looks a nice spot. Comment on your own games afterward (not just the ones you won!), then ask a much stronger player where you went wrong (not just the ones you lost!).

The same holds when you want to learn chess, or any strategic game for that matter.

Go to http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~mechner/go/kyu.html for a description of Go ranking systems.

[thinkingamer]

Korea: Totally different. Koreans tend not to start keeping track of their numerical rating until they're quite strong (maybe the equivalent of low kyus in the US). 1 gup in Korea (the Korean word gup is related to the Japanese kyu) is as strong as a US 6 dan, and amateur dans are (last I heard) only given to the very strongest players who win amateur tournaments.

My dad is 2 gup.

[Dimension]

Wow...

Given your ultra-patriotic view on world history, I'll try not to piss you off too much, but let me try to put things into perspective.

Do you realize that several people have argued that the United States of America doesn't really belong in Civ3? They do have a point, because while the US is the world's "superpower," it's still only been a big deal for 100 years. Given that Civ3 includes the space race (and the game was developed by Americans) it's certainly justifiable to include them because of their modern achievements... but it's just something to think about.

Please, try to re-read your post from a somewhat objective standpoint. You are basically admitting that Korea was largely inconsequential until 50 years ago, and it should be viewed as one of the greatest civilizations of all time just because it has risen to #13 in the 2001 economy. Civ3 is not a game about the last 50 years. I'm surprised you haven't extrapolated your figures and come to the conclusion that Korea will rule the world in 2050.

Let's try to relate this to the game. Civ3 is about domination by war, technology and culture. You have basically admitted that Korea is not a player in those areas. Look at a few of the civilizations that Firaxis chose, and how they fit. Egyptians thought Pi was 3.1605, but they were pretty smart for 3000BC. Think of China and its thousands of years of history. Look at the "Ancient Times" tech page, and think of how significant Rome was. Look at the "Middle Ages" page and think of the role of the British Empire. Look at the "Modern Times" page and think of the US and Russian roles in those areas.

Firaxis has tried to distill world history into 16 important civilizations while allowing temporal, geographic, and cultural diversity. Now, if this number doubles in the expansion, they could probably find room for Taiwan and Korea on the Asian side of things, but that post certainly doesn't help your case. Look at it. As Korea's "Major" early inventions, at least four of the six things you mentioned are completely ridiculous!

Korea printed a book in 1377 using metal plates. Quite impressive, but it certainly didn't further science. It didn't lead to them producing a full set of movable type and printing books, did it? It actually makes you wonder just what Korea was doing in the 100 years between the Chikchisimgyong and the invention of movable type.

Korea made water clocks? Please explain the significance. Korea didn't invent sundials... or clocks... or water clocks. They just made a few water clocks. I've made paper airplanes -- that doesn't make me Orville Wright. A Korean added a chime to a water clock in 1434. I guess you could call that an invention, but I would have to say it's somewhat less important than the invention of disposable lighters in terms of world significance.

Korea invented the rain gauge in 1441. Hmm. It wasn't a 1-piece gauge, though. It was the combination of a cup and a measuring stick. So, before that, people would walk outside and look at a bucket and say, "Hey, it rained a lot last night." The Koreans combined that with a measuring device so you could say exactly how much it rained! The world's first metorologists! Well, they didn't predict the weather, and they didn't have barometers, but maybe you can call them meteorologists.

Korea made a new phonetic writing system in 1443 to be different than China and Japan. So? Japan invented their phonetic writing system in the 900's. Written English goes back to the 700's. Egyptians and Mayans were using hieroglyphics a long time before that. In this context, how is Hangul the slightest bit significant?

Yes, a Korean general armored his fleet in 1592, and thus technically the first ironclads belonged to the Koreans. You've actually found something that is legitimately accepted as a Korean invention ...I must point out, however, that this is another example of a good idea a Korean had that Korea as a whole never adopted. Yi Sun-Sin had the brilliant idea of protecting his ships, but the idea was not used again until it caught on in the 1800's.

It's also a cool fact that in the 1590's Korea had pottery nice enough to impress China and Japan, but again, keep in mind that plenty cultures had quality pottery thousands of years earlier.

People make fun of France for being a military joke, but they had Napoleon. Korea has the honor of doing nearly nothing militarily except getting their butts kicked by a neighboring archapellago from time to time.

I'm not trying to be extremely rude, and I don't have anything against Korea (except for the Hyundai my girlfriend bought that never ran right), but your post is pretty sad. The very fact that you couldn't come up with anything impressive to post about the history of Korea is really working against you. You said so many completely ridiculous things! Technically the Korean war is still going on because in 1953 they signed an armistice agreement instead of a peace treaty?!?! Are you completely insane? What are you doing on the net? Shouldn't you be out fighting for your country?

OK, OK, I'll stop. I just think your post was a little over the top. I do think Korea would be cool in the expansion, and the Turtle ironclad UU would be a welcome addition.

[King of Rasslin]

Korea is actually a little more deserving to be in Civ 3 than the Aztecs. I mean, a few dozen Spanish guys crushed them AND the Incas, and the Mayas sacrificed themselves to extinction! I think a few Asian guys should be in Civ 3 than some Indians.

By the way, the people in India would be considered Arabs, right? India shares its culture with Pakistan, an Arab country. Hindu's are only found in some remote villages, but Islam and Middle East culture abounds in India. Regardless, India isn't really Asian. They do not have squinty eyes that close when they smile and their skin is too dark to be Asian.

[Dimension]

Yeah, it is a little odd that they included the Aztecs and not Spain or Portugal, but I suppose that was just a geographic thing... they wanted to come up with neighbors for Abe.

For some reason I thought this was just a 1-page thread... I'm not going to read 22 pages so I'll just assume plenty other people have mentioned the things I said. Sorry...

[yellfromhell]

King of Rasslin,
I wont waste words explaining all the goals the Aztecs reached. I agree, yes, with Dimension, about the fact that Spain or Portugal deserve much more to be in Civ than the Aztecs, but Korea is not better than the Aztecs. In the same line, I would say you are under-estimating the Indians. I again wont waste words but just let me tell you something: India has 800 millon people and only one region - Kashmir - has muslims mayority. Therefore, I would suggest you to find more about religion in a good encyclopedia and talk later.
Hugs.
Yellfromhell.

[Q Classic]

yellfromhell:
tell me, why isn't korea better than the aztecs?

you say you won't waste words on explaining yourself, but when you post on a long thread about why korea should deserve a position...