The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Drake Tungsten]

I actually used info from this thread for a presentation I just gave on Korean culture. This is one of the best threads I've ever read here on Poly. I wholeheartedly support its bumping.

[louiethelesbo]

Koreans are worthless just like the damn French....couple of good nukes and no more problems from either of those ass backwards countries.

[History Guy]

Indeed, this is an excellent thread, and certainly a great teaching tool about the great history of Korea. I applaude Yin and Sir Edgar for their fine work, and I must say that if Yin's book is as good as his posts, I'll have to pick up a copy!

[King of Rasslin]

My history school book summarized ALL of the Asian and African cultures in a single chapter! And we are taking world history this year! Europe has all the civs, except Eygpt has to be given a bit of credit. I have not even heard of the Iroquois being a major civ. I think their league lasted about half as long as America has been around. And I don't think they used mounted warriors either. Hmm... I guess Korea should have a chance if the Iroquois made it in.

I guess the fact that Korean's LOVE computer games would help too.

It's funny how Europe Civs are so unique but Korea is really just like China. However, the lower half of Korea is more like Japan. I guess it's just a messed up country, the way Germany used to be. America is the only non-Euro civ that should be in Civ 3.

[King of Rasslin]

BTW, I just checked in with the history book again. The movable type was invented by CHINA, not Korea. Hmm. And the Japanese also came from China. Buddism came from India. A lot of Korean culture is taken from other cultures. America has a little bit of its own unique culture.

America's huge advantage is having ALL of the world's culture. Being a land of immigrants, it's like having temples, libraries, cathedrals, and universities from every country! Whew! No other nation can brag about this. All of this comes together to make American culture.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
My history school book summarized ALL of the Asian and African cultures in a single chapter! And we are taking world history this year! Europe has all the civs, except Eygpt has to be given a bit of credit. I have not even heard of the Iroquois being a major civ.

That is ugly.

I think their league lasted about half as long as America has been around. And I don't think they used mounted warriors either.

You're right about the Iroquois not using mounted troops or even mounted special forces (although there must of been exceptions).
IMHO their UU should be a Musketman using all squares as road.

The League was formed in 1460 and lasted, for all practical purposes, until the independence of the USA. In the 17th century they built an empire of a size comparable to that of many other civs included in the game, based on trade with the Europeans (primarily the Dutch), co-operation of individual nations, a food surplus (where rival tribes often went hungry) and superior war tactics.
They were often at war with the French, who supported their enemies (ao the Hurons). If not for the Iroquois, you would be writing in French now, and you might not have a democracy of sorts either.
As separate nations, the Iroquois still exist today with their own governments.

Having Korea in the PTW pack would be fine with me though.

[King of Rasslin]

Trade wise, the Iroquois got a ton of gold. But they didn't research anything. They never really made it out of the middle ages, technology wise. I don't think a musketman would be a suitable UU, though.

Maybe they could get the canoe as a UU? There should be more navy UUs out there, besides the stupid man-o-war. Canoe- 3/1/4, can transport 2, can go on rivers. That would be cool

[Ribannah]

A War Canoe would do fine as the Iroquois UU, but unfortunately boats can't travel on rivers (like the St. Lawrence) in Civ which defeats historical accuracy.

But about the muskets: it is quite normal that nations import their arms from abroad, so I wouldn't worry about that. (How do you think did Austria get a navy? )
Instead of gold, the Iroquois asked for and got muskets, and soon they had more than any other power in North America.
The local currency was wampum strings btw, of which they had plenty.

What is important, is that they got very skilled at using the muskets.

About Iroquois technology, advances like Democracy, Polyculture and Urban Planning are post middle ages IMHO. In medicinal
skills they outperformed the Europeans and they had a certain knowledge about chemistry (ao waterproofing, dye, drugs).

This they had before European contact and therefore before their Golden Age. During, their war tactics proved too much for the French.
They didn't sit still after the 17th century either, and became ao silversmiths and construction workers.

Today the Iroquois play Civ and are active on the web just like the Koreans and everybody else.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
America's huge advantage is having ALL of the world's culture. Being a land of immigrants, it's like having temples, libraries, cathedrals, and universities from every country! Whew! No other nation can brag about this. All of this comes together to make American culture.

You'd be surprised to learn about the multitude of cultures and religions present in The Netherlands, after centuries of seafaring, open trade relations, accepting refugees, and unchecked philisophising.

[King of Rasslin]

Democracy? Polyculture? Urban Planning? These are great concepts and all, but they couldn't make their own muskets. So what if a civ can create a good concept. I mean, the Chinese made the printing press before Gutenberg. Did it help them? Nope.

Guterberg was smart enough to use a practical alphabet, not the thousands of Chinese characters. Ideas and concepts are less important that putting them into practical use. Extensive knowledge of chemistry, medicine, and dyes is great. Getting it down in writing is greater.

I don't care if the Iroquois can make their own little democracy or plan a village. I don't care if the Chinese/Koreans can make movable type. Any culture can create these ideas. But it takes a true civilization to put them to use.

[Ribannah]

Ehhm - they DID put them to use.

The Iroquois built a large empire, dominating all of North America, and Korea is a major economic power today.

Luckily your ancestors did care about the Iroquois democracy and constitution (written on 114 wampum belts), and followed in their footsteps. And what the Iroquois didn't write down themselves, was written down for and about them by Jesuit priests and European philosophers (among them Benjamin Franklin and Friedrich Engels).
European fashion was greatly influenced by the Iroquois colorful and practical (buckskin!) outfit, and their medicine (eg sassafras products) found a prominent place in world medicine.

China has produced great writers despite the drawback of not having a phonetic script.

[King of Rasslin]

There are dozens of Indian tribes out there. The Iroquois were not organized to control the whole continent. And they didn't have real writing, either. That was an advance freely given to them.

Real writing has to have more than just symbolic meaning. A character resembling a mountain or a buffalo has to mean more than "mountain" or "buffalo." That's why cave wall paintings are not really writing. No native american tribe created true writing; the kind, benevolent conquistadors taught them that.

And yet, the Chinese (and Korean!) writing system is considered to be true writing. I guess it's just politically correct to say that. They are big and powerful enough to claim that their "writing" is real, even though extremely tedious and impractical compared to our system. Wonder why illiteracy is so high there? You were considered to be a scholar in Korea and China if you were able to read, which took years of constant memorization. Yep, that title is well deserved if you can understand their language.

[Ribannah]

KoR, let's try not to hijack this wonderful thread, shall we?
Start a new one if you want to further discuss the Iroquois or Chinese accomplishments (better yet, dig up some old threads), you'll find me there.

About writing, while it is true that a phonetic alphabet has many advantages, it also has drawbacks. If you don't speak French, you can't read it either. But if you know Cantonese, you can read writing in any other Chinese language even if you don't speak it.
The same goes for the glyph script that was originally used by the northern Amerind tribes. Later, the phonetic Pickering alphabet was developed that is now in use for most Northern Amerind languages.

[King of Rasslin]

I think the Iroquios/Korean arguement is about the same: both are unfamiliar civs that take the place of other deserving civs in Civ 3. Between the Iroquios and the Spanish, I wish the Spanish would be in the game. The Spanish would get the man-o-war and the English would get the longbowman. Spain conquered the Aztecs, so they should be in the game. Korea didn't conquer anything. Since Civ 3 has such a huge emphasis on war, that is a major factor. Because Korea didn't really get involved in any major wars, what would its UU be? At least the Iroquois could have the canoe...

[Ribannah]

Missed the fifties, didn't you?

I'd rank the civs you compared thus far as follows, in order of importance: 1. China, 2. Iroquois, 3. Korea, 4. Spain, 5. Aztecs (far below the others). But that's me. Conquest is just one game aspect, I'm primarily a builder.
But I also value science.
If it was conquest and war alone, it would be a toss-up between Spain and Iroquois for first place.