CivIII Animated leader-Germans

[Martinus]

Re: Just the facts

Originally posted by Eagle one
Marie Theresia was empress of Austria. So she cannot be the leader of the Germans.

But it's true that Hitler was born in Austria (1889 in Braunau). After he has failed to study in Vienna (Austria) he went to Germany (1913 Munich).

Well, Maria Theresa was theoretically the Holy Roman Empress of the German Nation (since the crown belonged to Hapsburgs back then). And, Austria was considered a part of Germany (along with Bohemia). But I agree it shouldn't be her.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Solver
Well, Israel also appeared in 20th century, but Jews have been a lognway before it.

Yes, I have no problem with that. I was only saying that Germany's name back than was not Prussia or Austria, as both Prussia or Austria were part of the German Reich.

[Solver]

That's right. Luckily, it makes no problem to play the game.

[Alexander I]

I think everyone's forgetting a few things. Bismarck didn't support Hitler, and neither did Hindenburg - Hindenburg had to make Hitler the Chancellor because he was elected. Hindenburg even said he didn't want to see a Bohemian corporal became Chancellor of Germany.

And in CivII, the Russian male leader was Lenin.
And the German female leader was Maria Theresa.

AND there have been lots of butchers much worse than Hitler- he's just the most famous.

Hitler had 12 million people killed.
Stalin had 30 million.
Mao had over 60 million.

Genghis Khan wanted to depopulate China as a huge pasture for his horses - literally! until one of his generals stopped him.

You shouldn't focus only on Hitler. Just about every nation has had some bad eggs.

[Martinus]

Good post, Alexander

[Sabre2th]

It's true that most countries have had bad leaders, but Hitler does seem to rise above most of them.

[Wernazuma III]

Judging from the screenshot posted in the "Just the facts madame"-thread it will be Maria Theresia.

A clarification for those who say Maria Theresia was ruling Austria: That's not absolutely right. She also ruled Austria but through her husband Franz Stephan she was quasi Empress of the Holy Empire of German Nation. Until 1804, the habsburgs were german emperors and not austrian emperors. The Austrian empire "officially" started in 1806.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no german nationalist, but that's just fact: Until 1804, Austria was an official part of Germany and no one had a problem with that. After WWI, the vast majority of the Austrians felt german ("the 2nd german state"). We all have to remember that this was before Hitler and has nothing to do with what happened then.

[Martinus]

You are right WernazumaIII. I was saying (at least I think so) the same a couple of posts before - Austria was (and to some extent culturally still is) a part of German civilization.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Hindenburg even said he didn't want to see a Bohemian corporal became Chancellor of Germany.

Only because he confused Braunau in Austria with Braunau in Bohemia


And Alexander: Stop comparing badass with badass, madman with madman. Hitler's crimes where unique, as Stalin's where et al.
The combination of technocratic trying to make several genocides, launching the biggest war ever seems to be uncomparable.
I don't think that Russians should say "But Hitler was worse than Stalin!", so us germans and austrians shouldn't do it the other way around.

[Martinus]

I don't think that Russians should say "But Hitler was worse than Stalin!", so us germans and austrians shouldn't do it the other way around.

Yes, but we Poles can say both were equally bad

[Alexander I]

Yes, all the despots' crimes were unique. But I do not hold the view that Hitler was the worst of them all. During the Second World War, Finland actually turned to Hitler for help against Stalin and the Soviets.

I don't support what any of them did, mind you.

(Incidentally, Russia still has THEIR half of Poland)

Also, Montgomery and Patton were ready to press on for moscow after taking Berlin, but the Allied command were patsies to Stalin.

I think Hitler stands out just because he lost a war and had all his crimes revealed to the world.

All these madmen do the dirty work in secret - just because the others aren't publicized as much doesn't make them better.

I'm tired of people only looking to the Germans as villains. Yes, I'm German. So what? I'm no Nazi. Yes, I've actually been mistreated by Jewish people who want to make up for the Holocaust by taking it out on me and other Germans. I don't support what any of these insanely wicked men did, but I don't think we should single any one of them out as worse. They're all unique, but they're all in the same boat.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Alexander01
I'm tired of people only looking to the Germans as villains. Yes, I'm German. So what? I'm no Nazi. Yes, I've actually been mistreated by Jewish people who want to make up for the Holocaust by taking it out on me and other Germans.

No one is saying that. It is very passee if you will We are a whole new generation
I think german culture is not very well respresented in Europe and that is a shame. You have great philisophers and statesmen as well as litterary writers.

But I do consider Hitler to be the worse ever. (although it must be all the greek villages the Nazis burned down as repayment for the guerilla resistance after we defeated the italians and the germans came over).

[Eagle one]

About Austria

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no german nationalist, but that's just fact: Until 1804, Austria was an official part of Germany and no one had a problem with that. After WWI, the vast majority of the Austrians felt german ("the 2nd german state"). We all have to remember that this was before Hitler and has nothing to do with what happened then.

After WWI, a majority of the Austrians even wanted to get part of Germany. They called it "Deutsch-Österreich" (German-Austria). But the Allies forbid the connection.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Martinus

Yes, but we Poles can say both were equally bad

Granted, and "Noch ist Polen nicht verloren" ("Poland is not lost yet"; isn't that from your hymn or is this a myth?)

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Alexander01

I think Hitler stands out just because he lost a war and had all his crimes revealed to the world.

cause he was so mad that he didn't know where to stop. but you're right with the point.

I'm tired of people only looking to the Germans as villains. Yes, I'm German. So what? I'm no Nazi. Yes, I've actually been mistreated by Jewish people who want to make up for the Holocaust by taking it out on me and other Germans. I don't support what any of these insanely wicked men did, but I don't think we should single any one of them out as worse. They're all unique, but they're all in the same boat.

No, not all germans are villains of course. I'm austrian and don't feel a personal guilt either. Still the rememberance is important and sometimes you only have to scratch the surface off of "normal" people here and you'll find old opinions hidden - even in our generation. Collectivizing the guilt on our generation is ridiculous however, there we agree. I've had a couple of confrontations with jewish people about that but always could make my point. But surely the fun is over when e.g. I wouldn't get a certain job just for being austrian...