AU 202: Analysis, Solutions, and Stories (spoiler)

[Robber Baron]

Genghis Fred, Part Three

I had waited too long on Chivalry, I think, and let the Iroquois get too big and comfortable. When my keshiks did come on line, I made peace with Bismark and amassed the bulk of my military along the southern border. When everything was in place, I declared war on the Iroquois. Battles were bloody, and I did some serious damage, but did not press in for serious territorial advantage. This, too, may have been a mistake.
But Germany looked so vulnerable, without iron, that I decided to wheel around after bringing Hiawatha to terms, and seize the northern part of the continent.
Meanwhile, via leaders, wonders, and general building, I managed to bring a solid, competitive, infra-structured, fully developed civ on line. By the time the other civs had established contact, I was fully in control of the game economically and scientifically.
Now I suppose I'll have to grind my way through the Iroquois. It will be bloody and messy, but the game is basically in hand.

[Konquest02]

Quick notes on my game: more to come later (after my exams (wed.))
- Played as the Americans, regent Civ3.
- Early war on the Iroquois crippled them, lone warrior passing near an undefended Athens crippled Greece too. Both respawned. Iroquois was killed off but I kept Greece alive to act as a buffer between Germany and me.
- I then got plenty of room in which to expand which made the Americans a powerhouse.
- Recently finished the Germans (they are OCC on the little island with an Egyptian city) and I am in control of my continent (even if the Babs slipped 2 cities on the southwestern tip.
- The Japs got killed by (mostly) Egypt and a little bit of Babylon
- The French got nailed by the Babs.
- I think I will go for Domination, as I ponder which civ to attack next.
- Just got to steam power, industrious kicks in again!
- I made only once huge mistake: my FP placement is absolutely horrible. It's too central to allow any kind of palace move... If I restart (and I probably will, playing as England...) I will try to improve a lot on this!

--Kon--

[Jawa Jocky]

Konquest02 - Your game sounds too easy. I think you should be playing on Monarch.

edit: removed the y

[Dominae]

Just thought I'd get something off my chest before it drives me crazy:

In Civ3, 'Monarchy' is a government, and 'Monarch' is a difficulty level. Liberal use of the wrong term may not be confusing to some, but it has confused me on many an occasion.


Dominae

[Robber Baron]

Dominae: point taken.

Too bad "Deity" is not a government choice.

[Catt]

Finally got some play time in this evening. At my last report, I was a dozen turns from Chivalry with a good-sized horse army ready for upgrade. The Iroquois were the intended target, and they were a dozen or so turns from completing Sistine. Nice timing

About 3 turns before I reached Chivalry, the (as yet unmet and unknown) Babylonians built Sistine ). The Iroguois switched to, and built, Leo's. That meant both Sun Tzu's and Leo's were sited in my first two targets.

Upon discovery of Chivalry, I declared war. Though losses were heavy, I made steady headway into the Iroguois south. I don't know if it was the abundant wonders (both GL's, Oracle, and Leo's), my border build-up, or changes in PTW, but Salamanca had eight pikemen defending (and it was not a border city). Fortunately, I had planned on moving my entire force into Salamanca to suppress resistors and prepare for a deep thrust into Iroquois lands, and I had 20+ Ansar Warriors on a mountain outside the city. Over the course of fighting, I generated two leaders. The first I held for 5 turns as I researched Music Theory, and then used to rush JS Bach's (since I missed Sistine); the second formed an army, later victorious, and I built the HE.

I had only planned on taking Salamanca and a row of cities just south (for culture flip room), leaving Hiawatha with some tundra cities and control of a few furs, but I discovered that resistance was pretty intense (frequently all X citizens would be resistors upon a city's fall), and decided to clear my southern flank and relegate the Iroquois palace to Greece where they had built a lonely city.

In the meantime, I happily noticed that Bismarck's sole supply of iron had depleted. That's why so many longbowmen (instead of knights) were crossing my lands towards Greece. Bismarck demanded Incense and I gave it to him to avoid a second front. I used my GA to replenish my depleted Ansar Warrior ranks, and to build libraries and then a few universities (after having received Literature from my captured GL). Then, on the very turn my GA ended (and Hiawatha was ruler of a rump state, though not quite cleared off my southern flank) Bismarck demanded iron - I refused - he declared war and took my incense city with a force of longbowmen and pikemen making their way towards Greece. I retook the city, cleared my lands of danger, and am now in a position to press the attack for gems, control of the continent, and possibly the destruction of the Germans. I fear I have passed the tip-over point and the game is in hand without much risk now.

A screenshot from the turn after Bismarck declared war (and I retook my incense city) is below.

Catt

[jshelr]

The Arabs landed 11 transports with 7 MI armies on the Babs silk coast. Lots of arty included. We were not allowed to land on the mountain in the new mod.

The Babs intelligently did nothing other than pop a couple of cruise missles on the stack. The landing was covered by a stack of battleships and carriers with jets on air superiority. So, the babs bombers would not have done well. We took a city and built a new one to start the silk flow home. However, as this was the end of a fully engaged 20-turn world war with all civs participating, our citizens were about to revolt, despite the US wonder. With our beachhead in the only civ that is a threat on research speed secured, we made peace, remaining in democracy.

Sitting on a dwindling tech lead (due to AI trading I presume) we turned our attention to the cure for cancer before a run to get some modern armor.

It's fun exploring the new depth of the game in the modern era.

[Catt]

I apologize for the rather piecemeal approach to my AAR. . .

Both my fisrt attempt and my current attempt at AU 202 seem to be massively influenced by luck, which makes the game a little less interesting. The first attempt (you may recall) I suffered a German archer rush only a few turns later than it would take Bismarck to march his units directly to my second city. Bad luck. This second attempt is a tidal wave of good luck.

As I researched Chivalry, if Bismarck decided to declare war with all his troops trapising through my land towards Greece, I probably would have been knocked out of contention, if not all but eliminated. Didn't happen. Instead, I made it to Chivalry, upgraded 20+ horse to Ansars, took the Iroquois Sun Tzu city, triggered my GA which enabled both more upgrades and tremendous gold accumulation. A few turns later I took Salamanca and moved 25+ troops in to hold the town for at least one turn so as to enjoy the benefits of the Great Library. Bingo, tech parity. After taking Hiawatha's only two additional grassland, size 8+ cities, the Iroquois were essentially toast and my southern flank was basically secure.

My curiouisty peaked by lots of German longbows, I finally noticed that poor Bismarck's iron had depleted. He was defanged. With a war of conquest against Germany 10 turns out in my planning, Bismarck helpfully declared war when I wouldn't donate iron to the cause. Although pikemen are sometimes trouble, my forces are essentially carving through German lands. The Great Wall city will fall next, and then Berlin. The only question is whether to take all of Germany or turn my horses loose on Greece first.

Throughout the process, my non-militaristic civ has generated 4 leaders, without really trying (I'm guessing those 4 leaders have come from no more than 25 or 30 elite victories -- the first two before I had the HE built). I have a pre-build ready for Newton's, and I already rushed Smith's. I suppose I can take Magellan's if I want it.

I'm still a Monarchy, and seem to be keeping tech pace despite (1) relatively few universities, (2) relatively low science spending, and (3) a Palace and FP placement only 4 tiles apart. I haven't moved my Palace yet as intended, but maybe I'll use my current leader to do so. It hasn't seemed a pressing concern.

In short, after a frustrating first attempt, I am "enjoying" a ridiculously lucky second attempt (I say "enjoying" only because I start to lose a little bit of interest when the game is in hand). There is absolutely no reason I shouldn't win by domination with Cavalry if I put my mind to it -- and in connection with a discussion in other threads here in the Strat forum, I think I can simply focus on units if I want to, and stop my infrastructure projects with only 10 or so universities and 2 banks in the empire. My "easy" win will, however, have less to do with brilliant playing and more to do with a lucky coast downhill.

Catt

[jshelr]

Originally posted by Catt
I apologize for the rather piecemeal approach to my AAR. . . Catt

You should apologize. The piecemeal approach you have exhibited here definitely makes the rest of us suspicious you might have an outside life, or something.

Meantime, I was curious about the thread(s) you mentioned that dealt with the choice between building infrastructure and an all-out cavalry charge. Being basically lazy or overly cautious, I usually turn builder and hardly ever finish off a domination win with cavs.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Catt
. . . a Palace and FP placement only 4 tiles apart. I haven't moved my Palace yet as intended, but maybe I'll use my current leader to do so. It hasn't seemed a pressing concern.

I settled early in this game on placing my FP west of the start location. The terrain was great, it offered a well-centered position, the presence of hills, mountains, and jungles promised very shield-intensive cities and the possibility of an Iron Works in the Industrial Age (BTW, I haven't gotten there yet -- any IW possibilities near our start position or the incense hills?). Plus, I could build the FP manually pretty quickly and count on a later palace relocation to develop independent cores.

But, as leaders and land make themselves available, I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a particularly bad map for nice cores. The lands to our start's west seem to be the best of the continent. Each of the other three "spits" are not terribly inviting terrain-wise, and don't offer a whole lot of room for a productive core. To make the most of Palace Mobility on this continent, it seems that three palace moves would be needed - one to each of the foreign lands, and I'm not convinced that the pay-off for doing so will be that great. Combine that with the fact that Palace Mobility really comes into its own after Industrialization and many of you are seizing control of the continent before the Industrial Age, and I'm thinking that moving the Palace multiple time is an exercise in masochistic micromanagement with little impact on game position.

Where have others put their FPs and Palaces (if you moved the palace from the start location)? Any differing views on the landmass and its amenability (or lack thereof) to nice cores?

Catt

[Catt]

Originally posted by jshelr

Meantime, I was curious about the thread(s) you mentioned that dealt with the choice between building infrastructure and an all-out cavalry charge. Being basically lazy or overly cautious, I usually turn builder and hardly ever finish off a domination win with cavs.

Not so much infrastructure versus cavalry charge. It started as the old familiar "early temple" or not, and drifted into (for me) an opportunity to share a view on the game and its "winning strategies" that I don't advocate as a playstyle (nor do I play) but which I believe to be true -- that all infrastructure, other than a few barracks, is window dressing to some extent and unneeded to win. At the core of the game, units, unit factories (cities) and conquest win the game in most instances. Taking it a step further, the only reason for any real infrastructure at all is if some enemies are out of reach (separated by ocean for instance), and then only enough to keep reasonably close is needed. All of this, I believe, flows more or less from Vel's early work on the game (and I suspect that Vel came to a similar conclusion which made the game unintersting to him, but which hasn't done the same to me yet).

I think the dsicussion started in Dominae's excellent Civ-Specific Strategy: Americans thread, and continued into Arrian's excellent The Breath of God: Only the Peniten Man Shall Pass thread. My own posts were also influenced by the Early Deity discussion started by GusSmed.

Catt

[Robber Baron]

Catt:
I to0 had trouble setting up my capital/FP alignment. Eventually I decided to place the FP in Tabriz, relatively close to my capital (which I rarely move in games below emporer level -- not for strategic reasons, but just as a personal playing quirk). The result, crafted in part by some difficulty expanding in the late-ancient/early middle ages, is not as widely-spaced or as elegant as I would like. (See below.) Still, the result is productive enough.

As you observed, the best lands on our continent were those to our east and immediate north. Further north was not as attractive. Further south, I wasn't ready to take on the Irqs yet, and I needed to get my FP on the map.

edit: doh! East/west? I meant "the other east"

[jshelr]

Thanks Catt. Your comment meakes me wonder if the AU mod would benefit by giving improvements a greater ability to lift a civ. Just talking through my hat, suppose libraries and universities were significantly more efficient than they now are in generatating increased research speed. Would it be possible to tweak the game enough to make building necessary and unadulterated warmongering less effective?

[Jawa Jocky]

Using Robber Baron's Map above, My capital is in the same spot and my FP is in Ulaanbaatar. I built it really early in 30 turns. I've been meaning to move my Capital, but it hasn't been necessary yet. As bad as my FP-Palace placement is, it's not any worse the the AIs.

[Robber Baron]

Tangent:
The Mongols have by far the coolest city names. I mean, "Ulaanbaatar"?
Probably to make up for having the fuggliest leader.

edit: spelling. sheesh.