Minitourney III - Spoilers

[nbarclay]

Re: Japan Questions

Originally posted by vulture
I notice that some people chose not to attack Japan early on. This puzzles me somewhat, so I'm curious as to the reasoning. Was it a conscious decision to wait for later, or just a lack of decision to go to war?

For me it was pretty clear cut. Japan had horses and wines (that I wanted) in its territory. It hadn't yet connected the horses up to the net. So it had no good units. This game *has* to be won militarily, so I'll have to fight Japan at some point. It'll be worse if they get iron, and far worse if they're still an issue when Samurai appear on the scene. Plus the possibility of an early great leader, and the chance to add some developed cities to my empire. For me, absolutely everything screamed 'kill Japan now', and waiting appeared worse in every respect.

So, were other games sufficiently different that early that a different strategy appeared good, or were there other more important factors that I decided to gloss over? (Like building up infrastructure)

I was able to expand aggressively enough (and/or Japan had enough problems expanding) that I ended up with two sources of horses (one halfway across the continent) and one of iron within my borders. That left me with no need to fight an early war to secure resources, and building infrastructure helped me get the technology needed to build riders that much earlier.

And considering what riders can do against technologically inferior opponents, it made more sense to me to wait. If I built archers or swordsmen for an early war, even the ones that didn't die would be essentially wasted production because they would be obsolete the moment I had riders. Riders can move so much faster that the older units simply could not keep up with the front lines. (And that fast movement, coupled with excellent survivability and a golden age, gets wars over with quickly, which is immensely valuable to a republic that fears war weariness.)

Horsemen would be obsolete the moment a rival got pikemen (which I didn't realize would never happen - I think I saw one in Japan, definitely not more, and none at all in Egypt), and while in theory they can be upgraded, in practice I didn't want to put that kind of dent in my science budget. And horsemen still couldn't generally keep up with riders striking from one city to the next in a single turn.

There is also one other, more subtle nuance involved. I was competing not just with my rivals on my own continent but also against rivals overseas. If I crippled my neighbors early, they couldn't do as much of my researching for me. By trading aggressively with Japan and Egypt and leaving them intact until my research outstripped theirs enough that the value of their contributions was negligible, I put myself in a stronger technological position relative to the other continent. Similarly, building libraries a lot earlier than I could have done had I gotten in early wars helped my technolgy relative to the other continent. (So, for that matter, did my almost zero cost of military unit upkeep until I was ready to fight.) The net result is that had I not arbitrarily restricted myself from going after the other continent with pre-industrial units, I very likely could have achieved domination by 1000 AD by continuing to build hoardes of riders, upgrading to cavalry when available, and slicing through that continent long before it even came close to having the technology to stop me. As it is, I'll wait for more modern units to slice through technologically backward opponents with an overwhelming force.

Nathan

[jshelr]

vulture

I didn't attack extremely early because I research wheel first and was able to spot the horse to the east. That was my third city if I recall correctly. I got iron next and beat Japan to iron as well. So, I waited until a sword stack was built up. But, you're basically right. Japan had to be fought and the sooner the better. It's also true, I think, that Egypt was the key. So, being careful not to overextend in the Japan war was a reasonable precaution. It was less important to get all their tech than to be able to take the whole continent once they were disposed of.

Right now I'm stalling around in the modern age. I want to see how an invasion goes when the AI has all the techs for mech infantry and MA as well as nukes. (I will probably chicken out and attack when I'm the only one with the missle defense built.)

Specifically, what is interesting is the possibility of nuking and steamrolling using MA all in one turn, leaving no response from the target civ possible.

Anyone ever try to get RoP from a neighboring civ on another continent to land next to your target civ and have full railroad access to the boarder cities??

[Velociryx]

Taking it from the other angle, the reason I fought so early was that, I had all these cities up and running, cheap barracks, a close opponent who I was already out-researching....he was in my way. Add to that the fact that if I wanted to attack Japan and be a ruthless dog, then Egypt had to go as well, and had to be gone before the outside world discovered my little love fest.

With four cities up and running very quickly, I had 16 free slots for troops. Slots that represented "potential energy." If I built troops to occupy those free slots, I could turn that potential energy into actual energy, and building troops would accomplish the same kinna thing that building settlers accomplished (expansion of the empire)....'cept I could do both...build troops while I waited for my cities to grow, interspersing it with settlers when they DID grow.

The destructive power of a band of archers striking in the early game is so far out of proportion to their cost that it's just silly.

This is because each city represents a certain amout of "potential energy" as well. The longer you have it, the more it does for you.

By stripping rivals of cities in the early, EARLY BC years, you not only springboard your own growth (capturing cities you would simply not have had the pop points to build yourself), but you absolutely WRECK your neighbors' long term potential. That's a punishing two-edged sword, and one of the reasons that the "cost" of three archers is still a LOT less than the "cost" of a Temple....even tho the number of shields for both might be the same.

-=Vel=-

[Jawa Jocky]

I'm technically cheaty by being here (I'm still 2 turns from Chivalry), but since I have the entire map now I felt I was honoring the spirit of the spoiler page.

It's 670 A.D. and I believe my game is the most unique one to be posted yet.

Prelude - I have a bad habit of killing the closest civ and getting behind right off the start. So I wanted to force myself into the Oscillating Wars strategy.

I build 3 cities and made barracks and some archers

1st war - against Japan with a few archers. I took 1 city and razed another. Sued for everything they had. I got wine and Iron now.

I build more cities, some temples for the core, and swordsmen

2nd war - Egypt was expanding fast. I razed 4 cities (I felt they were too far away to hold) and sued for peace for everything had.

I'm still building and expanding my core, oh yeah I had good GL karma and from the Egypt war it was and sent it too my captured Japanesse city for the FP. This was the earliest I've built the FP I'm the biggest now, but Japan is expanding again.

3rd war - I take another Japanesse city and raze another and they are down to one city so we make peace (for everything they have of course).

Still building and expanding (i have a couple granary cities on the rivers) quickly.

4th war - Egypt has rebuild so I go raze 2 cities and take 2, but now that I'm happy about trimming back Egypt they won't talk to me. I'm starting to lose units to WC (they blew the GL in the 2nd war). I disband there captured cities and now the accept peace for everthing but one tech.

5th war - Japan is growing again and I fear there hate of China will not mix well with the samauri. So I take my swordsmen from egypt to japan to finish them off. As a show of good faith I ask egypt to help and the land of the rising sun as set (poetry).

Now I'm twice as big as egypt and I'm content to build until build until riders. I start building libraries and marketplaces in the core. I'm still expanding. I go into anarchy forever (religous is the most important!) with the desire to become a Republic.

The AI isn't completely stupid. With anarchy, and battle bruised military and no new units in production the AI decides now is a good time to attack.

6th war - I barely hold off Egypt. I take 3 units for every one I lose but I'm still in anarchy. Finally I get Republic (luxury rate 20% to start) and switch 1/2 my cities back to swordsmen. This long war is eventually won by China after raising 6 cities.

I getting really big now and I'm getting close to chivarly around 450 A.D. I'm ready to build riders start my GA and finish off Egypt b4 anyone finds out what I did (razed around 15 cities). Oh Sh*t! England just landed and got there toe hold. I go contact them and my reputation procedes me. They refuse to trade anything with me. Now I get notice the Copernicous is being built in England. I am really behind in tech

Plans for the future. I'm still going to use riders to trigger my GA. But I'll only trim back egypt and go into builder mode. I need to buy whatever techs I can't extort (which may not be easy since I'm so popular). I am used to playing catch-up but damn I usually don't even get this far behind on Emperor. Deity maybe but on Deity I can't ever get caught up.

[Velociryx]

Game, set, match....1720AD, domination. Germany built exactly two Panzers, and they both nixed one of my MA's each, giving Germany their GA just as their Empire vanished out from under them.



-=Vel=-

[nbarclay]

Once my Beijing going as a settler pump, it would have been wasteful to use it for anything else. It could grow as quickly as it could produce a worker or a settler, so there was no time in between to build even warriors much less archers. (Of course once I had fully expanded and had a satisfactory number of workers, I shifted the city's focus.) With Beijing otherwise occupied, building an adequate number of archers for an early attack would have been a slower process for me than it would for someone who used Beijing differently.

Of course if I'd gotten a settler instead of barbarians from that first hut, the situation would have been quite different. Not only would I have had the free second city, but the first settler I built myself would have come earlier. Under those conditions, I almost certainly would have done a little damage to Japan in an early war. As it is, I seriously considered an early attack with archers and even laid some of the groundwork, but when I discovered Literature, I decided libraries made more sense.

Incidentally, if I had launched an early attack, it would have been with limited goals, and I would have done it in such a way as not to mess up my reputation. I agree that a short war early to cripple a rival's expansion can be good strategy, but all it takes (barring bad luck) is one short and relatively inexpensive war to accomplish that goal.

Nathan

[Chemical Ollie]

Vel wrote: "The destructive power of a band of archers striking in the early game is so far out of proportion to their cost that it's just silly. "

I don't agree at all. In Mark G's tournament #6 I tried to attack Germany in BC ages using a stack of 7 archers, 2 spearmen and 2 warriors. Every single one of them got speared by the 2 defenders in Berlin. I finally was so desperate that I attacked with the 3 HP spearmen to kill the badly wounded 1 HP defenders but failed. Then the Krauts counterattacked with 2 archers and instantly killed the 2 fortified spearmen in my border city and the single warrior in my capital. Game over.

But I suppose you mean a stack of 20+ archers?

I did not attack Japan early due to the fact that I lacked the resources to build strong enough attack units. The lesson learned from Mark's tournament 6 (and also tour #4) is that archers are pretty useless unless you have tonnes of them to dispose of.

Then by the time I had the resources to build 20+ horsies, they had already got pikemen, which limited my first assult to grabbing 3 cities before my offensive force was dead and buried.

By the way, the 7 turns I got time to play last night while my kids where crawling all over the place turned out pretty well and I rolled over Japan with Cavallery, got a leader and a won battle by the resulting army. The only thing to slow me down was crossing the mountains in Japanese territory.

I have no time to play today as it's now over midnight and my kids just went to sleep.

[Txurce]

Did anyone say WHICH civ had to reach the industrial age?

Preface

The idea of a domination game that climaxes with a WW3-like bang would be a blast to play, but this scenario wasn't going to get many of us there. The only way to go at it seemed to be Nathan's, which is to artificially hold back from winning when you can, so as to win when we discussed doing so. I would have tried this, but realized that there still wouldn't be a WW3, because the AI would be as far behind as if... you were invading with cavalry and they had pikemen and musketmen. Holding myself back just to kick around the AI with superior units didn't seem worth it. So I just played this domination game to win, as best I could.

1450 BC: Can't beat the archer rush

Taking advantage of the fertile starting territory, China built one settler factory and four cities with barracks to pump out archers. In 1450, five archers attacked Japan. Pausing only once for reinforcements, the Chinese archers destroyed the Japanese horse city, took two others, and finally accepted peace, gaining two techs.

950 BC: Slow-motion oscillation.

Egypt was too far to attack in an optimal strategy of oscillation, so China now began to build up a force of horsemen to join its archers and attack Egypt. The Chinese set their strategy for all time: build only barracks and temples, only enough defensive units to garrison large and conquered towns, and research only when close to the three techs it considered crucial to global domination: monarchy, chivalry and military tradition. This early, China saved all of its gold for the temples it would need to rush later, and grew to 13 cities by 550 BC.

Then China destroyed three Egyptian cities in a first strike with a force of horsemen and archers. The Egyptians had only a few war chariots with which to fight back, and collapsed undr the onslaught. Despite waiting unusually long to fight again, the bigger Egyptian towns were still too far away, and there was nothing to be gained from the war besides crippling Egypt and extorting tech. China proceeded to do this, and shrugged when the Japan allied itself with Egypt.

In 430 BC, the Japanese surrendered again, losing one of its two cities, and giving China two techs. Egypt made peace soon after, in 330 BC, ceding two cities and two more techs.

330 BC: The drive to monarchy and the Middle Ages.

China now had 1736 gold, and the continental tech lead... which was not a good thing, given its lack of one library or marketplace. Egypt could have been kept vibrant enough to research either monotheism or feudalism. China started to build the Great Lighthouse, with the hope of discovering other lands to conquer, and sent out more settlers to fill in some of the vast empty areas still remaining in the continent. It also built more horsemen for the conquest of those legendary far-off lands. China's wise men discovered monarchy in 110 AD, and reached the Middle Ages one hundred years later.

Over the next 500 years, China fought Japan and then Egypt, gaining a few cities, building up its horsemen and, after researching chivalry, riders. Progress was steady, but nothing like what it would have been if its wars had produced even one Great Leader. The lack of a FP made corruption a seemingly permanent fact of life over all but the core of the empire. Our relative lack of progress bottomed out with the news that America had built the Great Lighthouse in 430, three turns ahead of China's projected opening ceremonies.

490 AD: The discovery of a new world.

In 490, the ocean-crossing Americans established the city of New Orleans on our continent, and the pressure built for the Chinese to find a way to transport their mounted legions across the water. China established (furious) relations with the five other civs in 520.
The end of another unfair war with Egypt got China two cities and a tech; with this boost, China acquired astronomy, and began to upgrade its galleys to caravels. Given its closeness, average size and conflict with neighboring France, America would be where China would establish its beachhead.

The last Japanese city fell in 580, and the elite horsemen were told that, instead of being upgraded, they would be entrusted with the steady destruction of Egypt.

730 AD: D Day of d Riders.

In 730, twelve Riders landed in the mountains outside New York. The next turn, New York was razed,and the Chinese Golden Age began. One turn later, a Chinese city sprang up on the new continent, on the luxury-rich coast of former New York. The Americans had only pike and longbow for defense - their fate was sealed. The Chinese lured Germany into the war with 60 gold, and waited for reinforcements. It also began to plot how to research the technology that would be required to conquer the bulk of the new continent.

China researched music theory, built Bach's on the home continent on the structure of the abandoned Lighthouse, and traded the tech for invention, gunpowder and chemistry. It then sold all of its luxuries for the cash to research metallurgy and military tradition.

This process was helped by the birth of its first GL in 850. This momentous event led to the building of a new city in the heart of the collapsing American empire, with the long-awaited FP. The FP and instant temples kept American flips down to one, and no razings after New York. Chinese industrial output exploded in the newly conquered land, and peace with America came in 950... ten years after the end of the Golden Age. America had been pushed to the far corner of the continent, and would die out soon after, at the hands of the English.

970 AD: Military tradition and the fall of France.

Next up was France, whose borders ran up along that of the former America. Every French city was defended by musketeers. The day of the rider had passed with the Golden Age, but China's synchronized efforts continued to advance smoothly. In 970, the Chinese learned the secrets of the military tradition ahead of the rest of the world. Once again, its specialized research arm was shut down. Its army consisted of 30 cavalry and 14 elite riders, as well as the 8 horsemen finishing off Egypt. The blitzkrieg garnered China seven French cities by 1010. After some consolidation, the French fell in 1140.

Russia was small enough to be an afterthought. Its pikes and longbows couldn't keep it from vanishing in three turns. Peace left Russia with one city at the far end of the continent.

1140 AD: End game against Germany and England.

Victory also left China with two GLs. It was too late to bother with the military small wonders - both became cavalry armies, leading the bold dual invasion of Germany and England. Germany had a couple of cavalry and knights, but England had a decent, growing cavalry. China took them on jointly because of a fear that its window to domination would close with the coming of nationalism.

Half of Germany - including Berlin - had fallen by 1220, and the wily Chinese struck a generous peace, the better to focus on England.
China took three more English cities, and stopped with the fall of London. Its cavalry was grossly over-extended, the English were threatening its southern (German) flank, and culture-flipping was a real problem with the English. When England entered the industrial age in 1270, Germany accepted peace in exchange for one far-off city.

China knew it was tantalizingly close to domination. Germany gave the Chinese a ROP for two luxuries. China started to line up its mounted units for one glorious stab in the back that would take all four German cities in one turn. And then - most anti-climactically - as two Chinese settlers filled in empty land with new cities (and yet another English city reverted), Chinese domination of the globe was acknowledged in 1285.

The conquerors had built Bach's Cathedral, the Forbidden Palace, and one cathedral (by default). Other than the pacifying temples, every shield and piece of gold went into the creation of the soldiers that conquered the world.

Postscript

To achieve true WW3-like invasions with a credible AI response, it may have made more sense to say that no intercontinental invasions are allowed until 1950. This would allow at least one AI civ to stock up on MI and bombers, and make more of a game of it.

[Txurce]

Saved games.

I'm attaching my game at 750 AD: the invasion of America.

[Txurce]

And here is my game just before I won in 1285.

[Theseus]

Dear god, I was gonna post a short note on my game... lemme read yours first Txurce, and then I'll put up my note (very tired in NYC).

[Txurce]

Alexman:

What happened in your game?

I'm always interested in the details of fast starts. How did you research your way to the Middle Ages so quickly, apart from the slider being at 100%? Lots of cities? Libraries? I haven't played at Monarch in ages until the two current tourneys, but building cavalry in 830 with only the locals to share tech with seems very fast.

Jshelr:

It sounds like your early game ran into the same problem I did, despite your patience: that any sort of war left the continent full of barbs. I think the catch lies in that our continent was almost big enough for four civs. Expanding properly was probably trickier than anyone expected. From this perspective, Alexman did it best in fighting no wars in the ancient era, since there was plenty of room to expand, and it allowed him the chance to quickly research his way through the ages.

Vel:

It sounds like you hit the Daily Double... not with your start, but by conquering your continent BC while building a global tech lead. You had your cake, and ate it, too. Nice going. And yeah, weren't the barbs a *****? I resorted to the same solution.

On a lighter note, I kept wondering why I couldn't wipe out Japan, Egypt and Russia... they respawned! I'm not sure I prefer that option when I'm ruinning a no-culture operation.

Sir Ralph:

Did you run into the "didn't think I'd do all the research" problem until you made contact with the second continent? Again, it was a tough game to know which way to commit.

Nathan:

You seem to have hit the Middle Ages first - did you basically build cities and libraries throughout the ancient age? This seems like a high-risk, high-reward approach to what you had identified as your overall scenario strategy. After that, your flood of GLs was the epitaph for the other civs, if one was needed. Something I found interesting is that your tech progress settled into normal mode around the time you contacted the other civs - in other words, your blistering Republic-by-550BC pace had slowed down. Any idea why? (I reviewed your republic map - you actually made it by 350 BC, about the same as the other smart guys.)

Vulture:

For a slow start, you made up ground fast... sort of the opposite of some other players, since you all seem to have finished at around the same time.

I've used the "make an offer" ploy, and found it to work often.

The slow AI tech question:

I recall passing the AI on tech in good Monarch games early in the Middle Ages, so I'm not too surprised that good players did better... out of context. But to do better in the ancient era on the less-settled continent is downright weird, and Vel may have a point about barb activity. Nathan's research strategy obviously works well on Monarch, but not this well.

Olaf:

Very nice adjustment with the longbows, and your wonder building is impressive. How much production did your capital have, with so many temp cities within its radius?

Jawa:

Were you researching while oscillating? Because the latter sounds flawless, but you advanced relatively slowly.

[Txurce]

Theseus, as you can see, I felt like reading and writing tonight. Somebody shoot me before I post again.

[Theseus]

Txurce, I am so impressed. That's one of the most aggressive games I know of.

I'm about to pass out, so I'll keep it short.

Great start, and great land to expand too (i.e., the whole continent).

WWF Smackdown on Japan. Left'em with two cities.

Massive Horsemen build-up, while also settling and building. Egypt grows equally massive, but with minimal resources has a crap military. Tokyo (still Jap) somehow builds Great Lighthouse.

Around 750AD, two major events:

1) The first long-range Galley finds the island SE of the other continent, and shortly thereafter, the English.

2) The Greater Chinese Co-Prosperity Expansion takes place.. Mao elects the "Arrian Deception," and 'deletes' all evidence of the Japanese and the Egyptians. Went at it with appr. 50 Riders... indomitable, especially against Spears, WCs, and Archers. Actually, a very fun race to kill them off before any of the distant civs know of Chinese atrocities. Successful.

[Sidenote #1: I had stockpiled appr. 40 Horsemen for Rider upgrades... that's a lot of coin.]

[Sidenote #2: Interesting new move: Given the isolation of the home continent, when meeting the distant civs I IMMEDIATELY paid for an embassy, so that they could not, preventing them from knowing the location and status of Beijing.]

[Sidenote #3: Unlike most of the other games described here, the massive attack on Egypt produced enough GLs... I took'em down in less then 150 years, which was massive... FP at Thebes, Army, Sistine. BTW, razed almost everything. Also, a complete bastard, depending on the Arrian D.]

Next, the settler race... fill out the continent before any of the distant civs can gain a foothold. Successful.

Like JJ, I'm cheating on the thread a little, in that I haven't actually reached Industrial, but I do know the whole map.

I am on the way to UP (tm). I have fully settled the continent, with 47 cities, and a well-placed FP... England is the leader on the other continent, with much land but only 18 cities. I'm just short of tech parity. I have so much resource trade $ coming in it's embarassing.

It looks scary on the mini-map... if I were playing England, say, and found a killer AI civ like I look now, I'd start sending Aeson gifts, asking for help.

My long-term plan is (maybe was) to take over the world in one fell swoop, but I may not bother... I'm with Txurce, this game is a foregone conclusion.

Last thought: England is being run by the dove party in the Demo game.

[Txurce]

Theseus, three items of note in your post:

First, the last-minute rewriting of the history books for the benefit of the Europeans, so that they'll think that big continent only had one people who seemingly bred like bunnies.

Second, establishing embassies first, so those same Europeans won't know where the bunny hutch is located.

Third, the decision to raze, which bore fruit since you were able to fill up the land, with nary a Euro city in sight.

Great, very different game. Post a save when you get a chance.