Training Succession Game

[Dominae]

Will you be accepting comments/suggestions?

[Krill]

Irrigate the wheat and the game, and make a nice 4 turn settler pump and a 2 turn worker pump. That alone should win you this game.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Krill
Irrigate the wheat and the game, and make a nice 4 turn settler pump and a 2 turn worker pump. That alone should win you this game.

The trick is getting fresh water to those tiles. There are slower and faster ways of doing this.

I think this is an interesting start because it allows for a strong non-standard build queue: rather than do the usual Warrior/Worker-Granary-Settlers, I would go for a Settler first here. One can be built one pretty quick by exploiting the Game tile to the fullest. I would then place this early second city E-NE of the capital, on the Desert tile. Thus by irrigating the adjacent Flood Plains tile, I can get fresh water through to all the high Food tiles within the capital's radius. All this Food allows for additional Workers, which will eventually make up for the slow start, Shield-wise (I would not build any Warriors for quite a while).

Optimal? Who knows. But different.

Just felt like sharing that.

[Krill]

It is interesting, you're right, but I would still go with the early worker, since there are four forests that can be chopped, speeding the granary. That would also allow the early production of a 4turn pump, whereas you would need to build another worker ASAP to take advatage of the extra tiles that the new pop would use anyway, loosing more time.


Personally, I would have gone with a wroker, then a prebuild for a granary. It is a four turn settler pump, with irrigation, and I would use it as such until I could irrigate the wheats and game tiles, to create a new worker pump.

Your strat allows early exploration, and maybe a couple of early workers, so yours allows you to start manipulating the AI sooner. While that is not really needed at this level, it is still one of the game breakers, giving you greater control over the strategy that this game would follow.



But, yeah, warriors would be way behind pretty much everything but wonders on my list. (Except if I got an SGL).


PB, can you post the 4000BC save, please?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Krill
It is interesting, you're right, but I would still go with the early worker, since there are four forests that can be chopped, speeding the granary. That would also allow the early production of a 4turn pump, whereas you would need to build another worker ASAP to take advatage of the extra tiles that the new pop would use anyway, loosing more time.

A couple of responses to this (I'm out the door):

1. Getting fresh water to your Wheat and Game tiles sooner is not, IMO, an example of "wasting time".

2. The problem with doing a lot of Forest Chops early on is that you end up behind in permanent tile improvements. Even with two Workers (here, non-Industrious), it's not easy to keep up 100% with the tile improvement required for a pump city or two.

3. Two cities with high Food ouput outgrow one city with a Granary.

[JavierLQ]

Well before i play my turns i have a few questions i want to ask so taht i do not mess the game up. First thing that caught my eye on the screeny ar ethe two goody huts outside our city radius, and was wondering why you had not popped them...any particular reason? or is it because your warrior is on the otehr side? should i head there and pop them or keep the warrior exploring to the E?

I also have a question about the city placement...the next city you mentioned it would be a good idea to set it up next to river in range of the insence so that we could take advantage of it..i get that...sounds good..however, how far along the river should i make the new city? As i looked at the screeny i was thinking of placing it where that hittie warrior is...or should i go a further tile to the NE..which would be NW of the second insence.

Another question that always bugs my games, after creating second city...what is priority of building at the new city? i believe i always built a warrior while my city grew enough to creat something else (most always a granary). And one more, I believe that after the granary i should make the new settler, or at least start on it (since it will take 8 more turns for granary), should i send the worker to make a road to where the new city will lay, so that settler can get there right away..or should i keep him back improving city tiles?

Sorry for these questions...i understand that they may seem kind of noobish to you guys, i just dont want to screw up the game.

Javier

[dmd175]

Looks like a nice start. My comments unfortunately are all based on the screenshot...I kept getting "DataIO operation System Error: LEAD" and "Error reading file..."??? This is with the AU mod installed, C3C, etc.

Anyway,
1. I'm curious about the goody huts too? Shouldn't we beeline to these before the hittites, provided we can block him from our capital?

2. Tech: learned something already...I would really not have gone for pottery but would have waited to trade for it. I guess it's that important.

3. 50 turn pace: is the AI really willing enough to trade to keep us in it? Hopefully pb you'll explain more about this 50 turn scheme as we go on.

4. Cost of research: you mentioned that pottery is cheaper since the hittites grabbed it. did the research turns actually decrease after you met them (at 4000 bc it was 11 turns, but we definitely had it by turn 10 [or was this constantinople expanding?])

5. 2nd city placement: On mon/emp and above, is it cxxc or what? I assume not "optimal". If it were me alone, I would have went for 6999 from constantinople. This has the advantage of getting us a free aqueduct in a city that is going to boom w/ all the flood plains. Dominae (I think) suggested 6699, which improves a desert tile for free for us.

6. Worker action: seems that we could a. improve wheat around capital or b. road out to city #2. Obviously permanent improvements will be a great help. OTOH, since capital is 10 turns from growth, and then shortly after that will -2 pop w/ settler, I think roading to our second city site makes sense since capital will not be able to get much out of permanent improvements on wheat, etc in very short term.

7. Pop rushes: how important to exploit on mon/emp and above? sometimes I forget to fully use this, though I always try to do it when 20 sh away from temples, barracks, etc. What do you guys think?

8. Longer term govt? More curious, but is our strategy for rep or monarchy?

---
General question: I wanted to play a massive pangaea game recently and all I wanted was to be plopped down in the middle of land as far as I could see. unfortunately, I started and restarted and every game was on the coast (no seafaring civ either). when civ patched the game to fix the bug about not starting seafaring civs near coasts, did they botch it and make it so every civ starts near the coast?

hopefully you guys can tell me how to fix that game loading error, and I look forward to Javier's turns and my turns.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Dominae
Will you be accepting comments/suggestions?

NO! I am the teacher! j/k

Accepting? Hell, I'm inviting.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Krill
Irrigate the wheat and the game, and make a nice 4 turn settler pump and a 2 turn worker pump. That alone should win you this game.

Well, yes, but that's not really the point

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Dominae


The trick is getting fresh water to those tiles. There are slower and faster ways of doing this.

I think this is an interesting start because it allows for a strong non-standard build queue: rather than do the usual Warrior/Worker-Granary-Settlers, I would go for a Settler first here. One can be built one pretty quick by exploiting the Game tile to the fullest. I would then place this early second city E-NE of the capital, on the Desert tile. Thus by irrigating the adjacent Flood Plains tile, I can get fresh water through to all the high Food tiles within the capital's radius. All this Food allows for additional Workers, which will eventually make up for the slow start, Shield-wise (I would not build any Warriors for quite a while).

Optimal? Who knows. But different.

Just felt like sharing that.

You may be right here; I almost always go granary before settler, and never build a worker until I have at least three cities. Different strokes/folks, etc. Certainly the FW issue you highlight is probably a good enough reason to build the settler first, but I really like having my apital getting to five or six pop ASAP so that it can produce a lot of uncorrupted commerce whilst pumping out those four-turn settlers.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Krill
It is interesting, you're right, but I would still go with the early worker, since there are four forests that can be chopped, speeding the granary. That would also allow the early production of a 4turn pump, whereas you would need to build another worker ASAP to take advatage of the extra tiles that the new pop would use anyway, loosing more time.

I don't like to much forst chops early, as Dominae points out, they are one time shots and often you can afford to wait. A mined tile will speed up your granary every turn of its existence; a chop as useful when you have 50 shields in your box as 0. Also, there's only one hill in my capital's radius and I'll want some forest when it hits size six and is done pumping settlers.

PB, can you post the 4000BC save, please?

Here ya go:

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Dominae
3. Two cities with high Food ouput outgrow one city with a Granary.

How's that? Only if you don't MM enough... unless your implication is that the one city won't be high food.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by JavierLQ
Well before i play my turns i have a few questions i want to ask so taht i do not mess the game up.

First off, don't worry about it! This is a learning game. I won't be mad if we lose. I will answer your questions, but I would prefer you generally make your own decisions; following my orders wouldn't be much better than me simply playing the gmae myself and writing reports for you. If you make your own 'miatakes' (not that there's really such a thing in civ, just 'better' and 'not as good')

First thing that caught my eye on the screeny ar ethe two goody huts outside our city radius, and was wondering why you had not popped them...any particular reason? or is it because your warrior is on the otehr side? should i head there and pop them or keep the warrior exploring to the E?

I just found them when the borders expanded, so I couldn't have popped them. Also, as we have a warrior and are not expansionist, there is a chance for barbs which we are not prepared for. Normally I would wait, though the nearby Hittite is nearby. It is a tough call, as I'm also hesitant to back track with the warrior again. If the Hittite isn't moving toward them, I would be just as happy to wait for cultural expansion to open them or to wait for cities that are going around there to open them, as no barbs will appear in a hut that is opened by a city's initial nine tiles. There's no hurry as maps where those hust are probably won't be too useful, 25 gold or tech are nearly as good later as now (well, to a point). Only the unlikely event of a settler would be 'worthwhile', IMO.

I also have a question about the city placement...the next city you mentioned it would be a good idea to set it up next to river in range of the insence so that we could take advantage of it..i get that...sounds good..however, how far along the river should i make the new city? As i looked at the screeny i was thinking of placing it where that hittie warrior is...or should i go a further tile to the NE..which would be NW of the second insence.

I would place it in your first spot mentioned (699), where the Hittite is.

Another question that always bugs my games, after creating second city...what is priority of building at the new city? i believe i always built a warrior while my city grew enough to creat something else (most always a granary).

I would probably build warrior and then a worker given its high growth. Then I would start a granary, and chop the game forest to speed it along.

And one more, I believe that after the granary i should make the new settler, or at least start on it (since it will take 8 more turns for granary), should i send the worker to make a road to where the new city will lay, so that settler can get there right away..or should i keep him back improving city tiles?

Yes, I would start the settler immediately after the granary and move the worker E to build a road. Not only will this speed the settler, it will speed the irrigating that will soon follow.

Sorry for these questions...i understand that they may seem kind of noobish to you guys, i just dont want to screw up the game.

Don't worry, that's the point!

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by dmd175
Looks like a nice start. My comments unfortunately are all based on the screenshot...I kept getting "DataIO operation System Error: LEAD" and "Error reading file..."??? This is with the AU mod installed, C3C, etc.

I don't know much about errors, but the only thing I can think of is that maybe you're not patched to 1.22?

1. I'm curious about the goody huts too? Shouldn't we beeline to these before the hittites, provided we can block him from our capital?

See my response to JLQ.

2. Tech: learned something already...I would really not have gone for pottery but would have waited to trade for it. I guess it's that important.

That probably would have been better given the circumstances, but I don't think I've ever met a civ this early game. Generally I think pottery is very important. Also, if you don't meet an Agr. or Exp. civ early you may be waiuting for a while; I don't like to leave it to chance.

3. 50 turn pace: is the AI really willing enough to trade to keep us in it? Hopefully pb you'll explain more about this 50 turn scheme as we go on.

Oh yes, they will for something like Writing. It is an expensive tech at this time in the game at that plays a lot into how highly the AI values it. IF we meet another civ or two by then I fully expect to gain all first tier techs (except maybe the Wheel) as well as possibly IW and Myst.

4. Cost of research: you mentioned that pottery is cheaper since the hittites grabbed it. did the research turns actually decrease after you met them (at 4000 bc it was 11 turns, but we definitely had it by turn 10 [or was this constantinople expanding?])

Yes, it actually decreased from five to four turns, IIRC. Tech cost is directly affected by the number of civs you have contact with that have the tech.

5. 2nd city placement: On mon/emp and above, is it cxxc or what? I assume not "optimal". If it were me alone, I would have went for 6999 from constantinople. This has the advantage of getting us a free aqueduct in a city that is going to boom w/ all the flood plains. Dominae (I think) suggested 6699, which improves a desert tile for free for us.

You can certainly get away with OCP at Monarch (just ask Arrian ), but cxxc is generally stronger. cxcxc (AKA ICS) is een stronger, but I don't like it; it's too powerful and ends up with a lot of MM, plus I consider it to be exploitative (the AI will never place its cities that close together).

6. Worker action: seems that we could a. improve wheat around capital or b. road out to city #2. Obviously permanent improvements will be a great help. OTOH, since capital is 10 turns from growth, and then shortly after that will -2 pop w/ settler, I think roading to our second city site makes sense since capital will not be able to get much out of permanent improvements on wheat, etc in very short term.

Yes, I would road towards new city location first. There's not much to be done with the Wheat just yet.

7. Pop rushes: how important to exploit on mon/emp and above? sometimes I forget to fully use this, though I always try to do it when 20 sh away from temples, barracks, etc. What do you guys think?

I don't do it much, I'm a nice builder . I usually only use it to rush a temple in a one shield/two food city that seems like it has a high likelihood of flipping.

8. Longer term govt? More curious, but is our strategy for rep or monarchy?

I would go for Republic in almost all situations, but, as I say, I'm a builder. Another good reason for Writing.

---
General question: I wanted to play a massive pangaea game recently and all I wanted was to be plopped down in the middle of land as far as I could see. unfortunately, I started and restarted and every game was on the coast (no seafaring civ either). when civ patched the game to fix the bug about not starting seafaring civs near coasts, did they botch it and make it so every civ starts near the coast?

You'll probably need to play at least a Large map to have a reasonable chance at being landlocked, but I've never really tried it out much. Also, are sure those starts are all near ocean, and not just lakes? (unless your'e avoiding those too, in which case n/m)

[dmd175]

pb, thanks for responses.

the error occurred immediately after I installed c3c 1.22. It sort of messed up my c3c main menu, changing the first items to "barricade" and "build barricade" instead of "new game". I uninst and reinst and same errors during both (?)

fyi, I won't be home to play until sunday AM.