Training Succession Game

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Dominae
The only good way of resolving this dispute is to play it the two different ways and then comparing results. For now, let me throw in two comments:

Sadly, I don't believe even a direct comaprison such as your propose would even yield accurate results. You need to do this duel start several times just to get a reasonable sense; civ is just too random in many respects.

1. A free Aqueduct is not necessarily all that great in a city that need never grow beyond size 6 to be useful (i.e. eternal pump).

But it, nonetheless, prevents another city from settling on that river and still being a first ring city. On the river it can still perform all its settler/worker duties while still keeping an eye towards future growth. One tile gained is not worth that much, IMO, unless you're using a camp strategy, which I'd prefer not. I may as well ICS. And is there such a thing as an 'eternal pump'? I can't see that necessity once you're into the Middle Ages.

2. With my method, I have two Granary-less cities working irrigated Wheat, Flood Plains and Game tiles faster. In your method, you have one Granary city working mined(?) Wheat tiles for quite a while to achieve a four-turn pump.

Hmm, gonna need more information, then, to analyse. What do you build right now if you're playing the 3500BC save I posted? Warrior? Worker? Or would you max out growth for four turns and then max shields for two (or 3 and three, but I don't think it matters much for thesepurposes). The question is, 'How much faster are you going to get that settler out by not building the granary?". Let's assume you go for a settler immediately (six turns); you're now at pop one with a settler, what are you working? The improved BG, or the wheat? Assuming the wheat, you can't get another settler for at least 15 turns, so it will be 21 turns until you have built two settlers in your capital. Granary will be finished in 8 turns, growth in nine (I would MM the last turn to work both wheats to save a turn of pop 2ness). At size three, I have one shield towards a settler, three food per turn and five shields per turn (game, BG, Wheat). MM'ed, I have three turns till growth, during which time I will accumulate 13 shields, leaving 16 for my settler to complete. Now four fpt, 5 spt, same tiles, +wheat. MM'ed will have growth in three turns, with 17 shields. In a total of 15 turns I now have a 3 pop city with a granary and a settler. I can build another in six turns, for a total of 21, matching the previous method. The granary and (tons of) extra commerce are bonus. I don't believe the seven extra turns of an extra city (factoring in the fact that two turns will be lost the first way because the road won't be done) outweighs my other advantages. In seven turns it will have grown one pop, produced fewer shields and commerce compared to the extra the capital will produce during this time the second way.

Where are you getting your Workers from? Will you go back and irrigate those mined Wheat tiles?

Many of my new cities build a worker immediately, particularly those that do 5 food/ 2 shields per turn or 2 food/1 shield. One worker is enough for your initial three cities, I find, especially while that granary is being built. I will generally have four workers by the time my fourth or fifthe city is founded.

[Modo44]

Gentlemen, I think you might have lost some students along the discussion.

For a player just entering Monarch level it's enough to say that:

• A Settler/Worker Pump (or two, if possible) needs to be set up, the sooner the better. To do this, Irrigate tiles with Bonus Food and build a Granary early.
• An empire needs enough Workers to have improved tiles for all (or nearly all) of it's citizens.
• For most cities, free Aqueducts (i.e. settling with access to fresh water - Lakes or Rivers) are very important.

Now go ahead and play with those ideas, to see how drastically they can improve your game.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Modo44
Gentlemen, I think you might have lost some students along the discussion.

Well, yeah, but I knew that was inevitable as soon as Dominae asked if I was accepting suggestions

For a player just entering Monarch level it's enough to say that:

• A Settler/Worker Pump (or two, if possible) needs to be set up, the sooner the better. To do this, Irrigate tiles with Bonus Food and build a Granary early.
• An empire needs enough Workers to have improved tiles for all (or nearly all) of it's citizens.
• For most cities, free Aqueducts (i.e. settling with access to fresh water - Lakes or Rivers) are very important.

Now go ahead and play with those ideas, to see how drastically they can improve your game.

Certainly very true and useful points, though I believe the only thing that's been cemented so far by the discussion is that Dominae and I are going to have to play a one-on-one PBEM

[dmd175]

3000-2550BC

3000 BC (end of turn): Changed slider from 8.2.0 to 8.1.1 b/c capital had 2 content/1 unhappy; now 1 happy/1 content/1 unhappy

2950 BC: Hittite warrior moved S. Note that no matter what we do with our worker, Hittite warrior can get to the goody hut (unless we stop our worker - no). Our warrior S. Worker E to get incense hooked up when second city founded.

2900 BC: Hittite warrior moved S - seems like going for goody hut. Since I can't stop him, I make decision to go for 2nd hut (barb risk vs. chance of free tech. risky.). Our warrior along existing road thru capital. Worker building road to incense.

2850 BC: Hittite warrior SW. Our warrior W. Worker continuing build of road.

2800 BC: Hittites SW to take goody hut. Hittite scout appears on hill 998 of capital. Worker continuing road. Capital kicks out settler, to 699. Slider back to 9.1.0 for extra +1gpt.

Capital build--worker, warrior, or settler?? I'm stuck....Debating pros and cons based a bit on Dominae/pb discussion. Worker or warrior in 4turn, settler in 10. Worker tempting to get irrigation started and done sooner. Given two Hittite units (scout = no attack, but anything lurking behind it?) at borders of capital warrior might be good. If it was my game alone, I might risk a settler to take some more of that river land to the NE. But...I'll punt this turn and decide on next turn.

Our warrior S to two angry Gaul warriors (sorry!).

2750 BC: Our warrior attacked, wins unscathed --> veteran. Hittite warrior to hill 322 of Const. Scout to 6999 of Const. Our warrior attacks Gaul warrior to SW, wins, -2hp. whew.

Adrianople founded (1 spt, 2 surplus fpt). Incense connected. But we can now see a Hittite Settler 69 of Adrianople. ugh. Worker W to start irrigation. Adrianople production not decided yet, since 10 turns to worker/warrior, the decision is really up to PB. As far as constantinople, I think we build warrior - though this decision I have literally spent several minutes on and people might debate (warrior/spear, worker, or settler to go NE toward Hittite).

Another point for comment: my MM plan here. 3 turns of game+wheat gives 9 shields, then on turn 4 switch game to wheat or ocean for extra food or extra trade. Extra food will do no good b/c does not seem to carry over to fill up top half of granary (I tried it). So we'll take net extra +1 trade from ocean vs. game.

2710 BC: Hittite warrior S and out of view. Hittite scout at 2 from Adrianople. Hittite settler moves SE; another Hittite warrior moves to the settler's previous spot. Our wounded warrior W. He sees orange outlined border = Turks.

2670 BC: Hittite scout to 3 of Const. Hittite settler SE and lost to fog of war. Hittite warrior also SE. Let's meet the Turks --> Warrior W. MM: moved game to ocean.

2630: Hittite warrior SE out of view. Scout now 11 from Const. Const makes warrior, which I (aggressively, wrongly?) send off NE, given that we have incense for happiness for now. Const now working game, mine, and wheat. Grows in 4/settler in 6, or worker, which I can pop out and time with pop growth in 3 turns. We'll go for worker here (this turn MM work two wheats + game instead of mine+game+wheat). Comments?

Other warrior W, meets Turk worker. Ottomans have masonry, wheel, warrior code, 10 gold vs. us 86 gold alphabet and pottery. They are very stingy: will give us warrior code for 63 gold and pottery. Or will trade any tech for alphabet. I decided not to trade given PB's strategy of trading writing later (so we need to protect alphabet, even though hittites have) and not to trade pottery given importance placed on it by PB (granaries to turks would increase their growth rate). What would you guys have done? In my own game, I might have traded at least one tech away.

2590 BC: Arabic scout seen on hill S of Constantinople. zero gold and ceremonial burial to offer, but he parts with CB for 71 gold which I accept. CB is traded to Turks for Warrior Code and 10 gold. Incidentally, do you guys totally bilk the AI for everything they are willing to pay for something, or do you take their first offers?

Constantinople MM'd to grow in 2/worker in 2. Irrigation done at 69 of Const.

Next job for worker? I know people talked about chopping game, but I agree w/ PB that we are going to need some forests for shields (and game is a +2 food resource, not shields). Thus, I move, S to begin road and irrigation.

Warrior near Adrianople moves E. Worker near turks moves N.

2550 BC: Arabic warrior into view at 221 Constantinople; scout at 333.

Warrior near Adrianople moves NE; he scouts borders of Hittites second city. Worker near turks moves N onto
a wheat revealing more grassland and desert.

--------------
Const worker next turn (or could easily change)
We are tech even with Arabs; have warrior code over
hittites; have alphabet and pottery over turks who have masonry and wheel over us.
No surprise we have weakest military. Cities undefended. Some barb tribe somewhere near
adrianople. 3rd place in power.
Maybe I botched this game. Adrianople is years from
making a settler. Const after worker next turn could kick out settler in 6. Arabs already have 3rd city.
Interested to hear comments and criticisms.3000 BC 3000 BC

[dmd175]

2550bc SAV

Save game

emailed to PB also.

[dmd175]

discuss amongst yourselves...and us too!

Originally posted by punkbass2000

Certainly very true and useful points

All good points. The dicussion was long but clear enough. Obviously we were worried about the free aqueduct for 2nd city placement. As a builder style player I like to have lots o' workers. And I think you guys will be able help me out to build faster better settler worker pumps.

[Krill]

And is there such a thing as an 'eternal pump'?

Yes, an Eternal (worker) pump is used to create a worker once every two turns. The worker is then added to other cities/metros, effectively turning 10food/10shield workers into 40/60food labourers. It allows those main cities to focus on production/commerce.

I believe the only thing that's been cemented so far by the discussion is that Dominae and I are going to have to play a one-on-one PBEM

Been there, done that, won the T-shirt:P It's not all it's cracked up to be: you get one hell of a headache trying to plan a head as much as possibe (or maybe that was playing lightening sessions from midnight until 3am )

[punkbass2000]

Re: 3000-2550BC

Originally posted by dmd175
3000 BC (end of turn): Changed slider from 8.2.0 to 8.1.1 b/c capital had 2 content/1 unhappy; now 1 happy/1 content/1 unhappy

2950 BC: Hittite warrior moved S. Note that no matter what we do with our worker, Hittite warrior can get to the goody hut (unless we stop our worker - no). Our warrior S. Worker E to get incense hooked up when second city founded.

2900 BC: Hittite warrior moved S - seems like going for goody hut. Since I can't stop him, I make decision to go for 2nd hut (barb risk vs. chance of free tech. risky.). Our warrior along existing road thru capital. Worker building road to incense.

2850 BC: Hittite warrior SW. Our warrior W. Worker continuing build of road.

2800 BC: Hittites SW to take goody hut. Hittite scout appears on hill 998 of capital. Worker continuing road. Capital kicks out settler, to 699. Slider back to 9.1.0 for extra +1gpt.

Capital build--worker, warrior, or settler?? I'm stuck....Debating pros and cons based a bit on Dominae/pb discussion. Worker or warrior in 4turn, settler in 10. Worker tempting to get irrigation started and done sooner. Given two Hittite units (scout = no attack, but anything lurking behind it?) at borders of capital warrior might be good. If it was my game alone, I might risk a settler to take some more of that river land to the NE. But...I'll punt this turn and decide on next turn.

Our warrior S to two angry Gaul warriors (sorry!).

2750 BC: Our warrior attacked, wins unscathed --> veteran. Hittite warrior to hill 322 of Const. Scout to 6999 of Const. Our warrior attacks Gaul warrior to SW, wins, -2hp. whew.

Adrianople founded (1 spt, 2 surplus fpt). Incense connected. But we can now see a Hittite Settler 69 of Adrianople. ugh. Worker W to start irrigation. Adrianople production not decided yet, since 10 turns to worker/warrior, the decision is really up to PB. As far as constantinople, I think we build warrior - though this decision I have literally spent several minutes on and people might debate (warrior/spear, worker, or settler to go NE toward Hittite).

I would definitely go with the warrior. We're inundated with Hittite units as it is, and can be certain their capital is not far. Also, IIRC, on Monarch they will receive at least one warrior with every new city they found, and we do need protection as well as some power to discourage them from attack. Also, the spear is probably more than we need and more expensive ATM, and this warrior is likely to just explore or do MP duty anyway, both of which a spear is not particularly better at (at least not better than the two warrior that one could build instead). I may be thinking a little too defensively, but I'm inclined not build a worker/settler until we have a second warrior in this situation.

Another point for comment: my MM plan here. 3 turns of game+wheat gives 9 shields, then on turn 4 switch game to wheat or ocean for extra food or extra trade. Extra food will do no good b/c does not seem to carry over to fill up top half of granary (I tried it). So we'll take net extra +1 trade from ocean vs. game.

True, extra food will not carry over from a pop growth. Note that food does carry over when a settler is built (ie. there's 15 food in the box and you produce 3 fpt at size four, and you're one turn from a settler; you will complete the settler, drop to two pop and have 18 food in your box next turn).

2710 BC: Hittite warrior S and out of view. Hittite scout at 2 from Adrianople. Hittite settler moves SE; another Hittite warrior moves to the settler's previous spot. Our wounded warrior W. He sees orange outlined border = Turks.

2670 BC: Hittite scout to 3 of Const. Hittite settler SE and lost to fog of war. Hittite warrior also SE. Let's meet the Turks --> Warrior W. MM: moved game to ocean.

2630: Hittite warrior SE out of view. Scout now 11 from Const. Const makes warrior, which I (aggressively, wrongly?) send off NE, given that we have incense for happiness for now. Const now working game, mine, and wheat. Grows in 4/settler in 6, or worker, which I can pop out and time with pop growth in 3 turns. We'll go for worker here (this turn MM work two wheats + game instead of mine+game+wheat). Comments?

I might go with a settler rather than a worker here, but it's not set in stone (as I'm sure you've gleaned from my discussion with Dominae).

Other warrior W, meets Turk worker. Ottomans have masonry, wheel, warrior code, 10 gold vs. us 86 gold alphabet and pottery. They are very stingy: will give us warrior code for 63 gold and pottery. Or will trade any tech for alphabet. I decided not to trade given PB's strategy of trading writing later (so we need to protect alphabet, even though hittites have) and not to trade pottery given importance placed on it by PB (granaries to turks would increase their growth rate). What would you guys have done? In my own game, I might have traded at least one tech away.

I would trade both techs and I believe I would be able to gain tech parity. I might hoard Alph if the Hittites didn't already have it, but there's not much point otherwise. Also, trading it immediately may have been beneficial, as even if they don't get it from the Hittites it will cheaper for them to research once they meet the Hittites, and they will also value it less in trade. I hope I can still trade it to them when I start my session.

2590 BC: Arabic scout seen on hill S of Constantinople. zero gold and ceremonial burial to offer, but he parts with CB for 71 gold which I accept. CB is traded to Turks for Warrior Code and 10 gold. Incidentally, do you guys totally bilk the AI for everything they are willing to pay for something, or do you take their first offers?

Until the IA I bilk every last piece of gold, but maybe I just have OCD. After the IA begins I bargain down to the last five gold. Also, make sure to see if anyone else has CB; if not, you should definitely trade to anyone willing to pay a fair price for it (at this stage of the game that includes just about any tech or around 50 gold, IMO). Again, you want to trade it immediately before other civs get the chance to contact the Arabs and either get it directly from them or at least have its cost reduced for them. You want to be the middle man to make a profit, and your profit is greater with a monopoly.

Constantinople MM'd to grow in 2/worker in 2. Irrigation done at 69 of Const.

Next job for worker? I know people talked about chopping game, but I agree w/ PB that we are going to need some forests for shields (and game is a +2 food resource, not shields). Thus, I move, S to begin road and irrigation.

I would start chopping, there's enough other forest for now, plus we want to irrigate the game so that we can then irrigate the wheat (free irrigation through Constantinople means we'll save one square of 'unnecessary' (FTM) irrigation. As it stands, I'm going to let the worker finish the road you started, then chop. This will allow Adrianople to finish a worker/warrior and then get 10 shields towards its granary while building it.

Warrior near Adrianople moves E. Worker near turks moves N.

2550 BC: Arabic warrior into view at 221 Constantinople; scout at 333.

Warrior near Adrianople moves NE; he scouts borders of Hittites second city. Worker near turks moves N onto
a wheat revealing more grassland and desert.

--------------
Const worker next turn (or could easily change)
We are tech even with Arabs; have warrior code over
hittites; have alphabet and pottery over turks who have masonry and wheel over us.
No surprise we have weakest military. Cities undefended. Some barb tribe somewhere near
adrianople. 3rd place in power.
Maybe I botched this game. Adrianople is years from
making a settler. Const after worker next turn could kick out settler in 6. Arabs already have 3rd city.
Interested to hear comments and criticisms.3000 BC 3000 BC

Don't worry about potentially 'botching' this game, I think we're in a reasonable position and we're here to learn, not be self-conscious

[punkbass2000]

2550BC Sell WC to Arabia for 71 (all their) gold.
Trade Alph, 1gpt and 108 gold for the Wheel with Ottomans.
Sell the Wheel to the Hittites for 45 (all their) gold.

2510BC Constantinople completes worker. Begins settler.
Worker E, begins chop of game (slightly misunderstood the situation, which is why I've changed a bit from what I posted above.) Adrianople changed to work irrigated desert so warrior completes in two turns, so as not to 'waste' the chop by completing the warrior and chop at the same time.
Eastern warrior S, can now see Tarsus (Hittite).
Western warrior N.

2470BC Eastern warrior back N.
Western warrior W.
Trade Pottery, 6gpt and 13 gold for Myst. with Arabs.
Trade Pottery, Myst. for Masonry and 37 gold with Ottomans.
Trade Myst. for 2gpt and 13 gold with Arabia (all their gold and gpt).

2430BC Adrianople trains warrior. Begins granary.
New warrior goes to Constantinople for soon-to-be needed MP.
Worker completes road, goes to chop game as well, so it will be chopped next turn instead of in two.
Eastern warrior N.
Western warrior W.
Constantinople switched to wheat for one turn so as to allow growth next turn. Also switched to Colloussus to prevent chopped shields from going to wrong place .
Adrianople back to Flood Plain working.
Buy worker from Ottomans for 1gpt and 88 gold.
Slave S to wheat.

2390BC Constantinople grows, switched back to settler. Working BG, 2 wheat and game for 5fpt. Here I have maxed food because there's no way to generate 15 shields while growing in three turns (best is 14 shields ), so I'm maxing food to grow in two turns while producing six shields. This will allow the settler to complete when Constantinople hits size six, as with irrigated game it will be able to produce 5 fpt and spt at size five.
Warrior in Constantinople fortifies.
Western warrior fortifies on the mountain it's now on to regain lost hp.
Both workers irrigate game.
Slave begins road.
Eastern warrior goes E.
Interesting to note that Arabia still seems to be making 4gpt (remainder of 6gpt and 2pt we traded a couple turns ago), dspite the fact that when I raised what I wanted from them to 3gpt the advisor said 'They would never accept such deal', which usually means they aren't making that much.

2350BC Eastern warrior N.

2310BC Constantinople grows. Lux at 10% to accomodate.
Adrianople grows. Next growth in ten, granary in 47. Working two FPs, though it should probably take advantage of that forest when it hits size three, dropping to 1fpt, but 3 spt.
Eastern warrior N. Barb camp spotted at 9998 from Adrianople.
Both workers W then S to wheat.
Western warrior (now healed) W. Barb camp one tile NW of his current position.

2270BC Western warrior attacked twice by barbs during interturn, one hp loss total, became elite (of course). Waiting one turn to regain that hp.
Both workers begin irrigation of wheat.
Constantinople switched from forest to ocean as the shields are unneeded.
Eastern warrior N.

2230BC Constantinople completes settler. Settler moves to Adrianople, heading for 87 from Tarsus. Without ICS, only one more city can fit onto the river, and we want it to be a coastal city. This is generally important, as you want city's with coast/sea in their radius to be able to build harbours, but especially so because we're Seafaring. Hope barbs won't be a problem, I don't like wasting time protecting settlers. There's probably enough Hittite warrior running around that we won't have to worry about them. Lux dropped to 0, BTW.
Eastern warrior NW. 3 most SE tiles of Hittite capital spotted.
Western warrior S. Looks like Ottomans have two gems in their capital's radius.
Arabia began Oracle within the last couple turns, forgot to record it before.
Constantiple MM'ed from forest to unimproved BG to facilitate two-turn growth. (Watch out for this when city's change size or some such as the governor like to start switching to forests etc. and leave with 3 or 4 or fpt, which is not nearly as good as 5fpt, especially for a city ina granary.)

2190BC Workers finish irrigation. One helps with the road, completing it immediately (this can be a very useful trick with roads, as it allows the 'original' road worker [in this case the slave] to move as well as allowing all units on the tile to not have to waste turn moving onto the road [Constantinople, in this case]. The second is not an issue here, as we're better to move the other worker and slave W (which we do) to complete the irrigation in two turns with the other worker,
Constantinople gained six food last turn as a result (which I neglected to think about), so game switched to BG, as only 4 fpt is needed for growth. After next turn we'll want it on the wheat that's not currently in use so we get 5fpt without the game so Adrianople can hold onto it.
Adrianople switches from two FP to game and forest. Note that we only need 14 food to grow, so going from 3 fpt to 4 gpt only means one less turn until growth, and I think we're better off with two extra shields, though one could consider spending two turns at 3fpt and then two turns at 4fpt (by switching the forest to the FP).
Settler E.
Eastern warrior S, spotting two barbs at 66. Will continue in that direction to get to intended city spot where it can defend on good defensive terrain. Let me know if you're not aware of/don't understand the 'barb bug'. The settler will need to wait after next turn for the warrior to get into position.
Western warrior W.

2150BC Worker and slave combo begin irrigation. Other worker W to join them and complete it next turn.
Settler E.
Eastern Warrior SE. Western warrior S. Vast jungle discovered next to Ottoman's capital .
Constantinople grows, now works 2 wheat, and 3 BGs, one of which is the improved one.

After session thoughts:
I think we're probably likely to be first to Writing and subsequently Philosphy. The Ottos and Arabs are probably both going hard at IW, while the Hittites are probably going after Masonry. Even afterwards, all three civs may research HBR or Math. before Writing, and maybe even Poly. (Which I find the AI seems to love).
Remind me to start naming units.

[punkbass2000]

save

[dmd175]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Trade Pottery, 6gpt and 13 gold for Myst. with Arabs.
Trade Pottery, Myst. for Masonry and 37 gold with Ottomans.
Trade Myst. for 2gpt and 13 gold with Arabia (all their gold and gpt).

...

Interesting to note that Arabia still seems to be making 4gpt (remainder of 6gpt and 2pt we traded a couple turns ago)

Something does not seem right here: could not have received Myst from Arabs and then traded to them. The first trade was with Turks/Hittites maybe, which would explain why arabia probably did not have gold to trade.

Let me know if you're not aware of/don't understand the 'barb bug'.

Is there a quick explanation or a thread you could point out before I start searching?

[punkbass2000]

Oops Fairly certain the civs are correct, I meant I traded Masonry to Arabia.

In C3C, Barbs only move if there is something on the NW/SE axis from their current position. They will never attack anything not on that axis, and will attack anything immediately beside them that is on that axis. Otherwise, they fortify. I'll be back in just a minute with CFC thread that explains the bug and how to fix it. It is not yet 'fixed' in the AU mod and probably won't be officially patched by Firaxis, so I left the bug as this isn't to be a further modified game.

EDIT: Here's the thread. It's four pages long, but watorrey edited in links to a few of the most important/interesting posts.

[dmd175]

Developing our Byzantine empire

JLQ, you are going to have to adjust the luxury slider before you end your turn as Constantinople has 1Happy2/content/2unhappy.

Obviously the settler going to Tarsus 87 will have to move 6 then 8 to avoid being whacked while our E warrior will have to move S twice to defend our new city spot.

PB, wanted to check your thought longer term on
a) next city sites. Should we try to deprive the Hittites of that horse that is south of their capital with our fourth city?
b) when to start build temple(s) (when do you usually build?). If it were me, I might have const. kick out one or two more settlers +/- worker/warrior and start it.
c) what wonders you think we'll try for or will we avoid all as a matter of principle? I think we should definitely avoid GL as a teaching point (I never build it to try to compete in tech in other ways).
d) when do you start to explore with ships? This is something I'm very weak at as I never find the time to kick out a curragh or something until later than AI.

Later, d

[punkbass2000]

Re: Developing our Byzantine empire

Originally posted by dmd175
JLQ, you are going to have to adjust the luxury slider before you end your turn as Constantinople has 1Happy2/content/2unhappy.

Obviously the settler going to Tarsus 87 will have to move 6 then 8 to avoid being whacked while our E warrior will have to move S twice to defend our new city spot.

Both correct.

PB, wanted to check your thought longer term on
a) next city sites. Should we try to deprive the Hittites of that horse that is south of their capital with our fourth city?

I don't know that we'd be able to get out next settler there before the Hittites, they tend to prioritze resources and it's close to ther capital. I would probably keep the Eastern warrior in the area (assuming survival) and see if it looks like we can beat the Hittites there.

b) when to start build temple(s) (when do you usually build?). If it were me, I might have const. kick out one or two more settlers +/- worker/warrior and start it.

I wouldn't really build them yet if I wasn't going specifically for a culture victory, though you could probably get away with it on Monarch. We're not religious, and the capital (with two MP) will only need 10% lux to stay civil. If we get that horse city, I would pop rush on there (assuming 2fpt and 1 spt, could be done in 20 turns.) Eventually also in the city about to be founded, mostly just to beat Tarsus to it and grab some tiles. Other than that I don't see the need for them too soon; maybe in a couple large cities when we're about to become (or recently became) a Republic, after marketplaces are up.

c) what wonders you think we'll try for or will we avoid all as a matter of principle? I think we should definitely avoid GL as a teaching point (I never build it to try to compete in tech in other ways).

I might avoid them as a matter of principle for this game, they're certainly not necessary and generally of questionable value at best, especially on a Small map which reduces the value of Pyramids; generally they're not worth the shields. Maybe we'll take advantage of less popular ones that don't change the overall strategy of the game, like Colossus or MoM. Creating a super science city (SSC) with both those wonders and eventually Cop's and Newt's would be a fun yet useful goal. I believe greatly in city specialization as you've seen already and will see more of soon. Very high (5fpt) food and spt (at least 6 at size four and 7 at size 5) = Settler factory and gets granary. Very high food/low shields = worker factory which may get a granary. Low Food/high shields = Military camp and gets barracks. High commerce/high shields builds lots of commerce multipliers. The city we're about to build will be able to do SSC as its coastal and reasonably close to the capital. It will also have a lot of FPs and forest as well as river, which all add up to a high shield and high commerce city, with potential high growth that probably won't be utilized as the FPs will be balanced by forests. It would likely be best for that city two stick around 2-3fpt so it can build. Yes, the capital would be nice for the SSC but it's too useful as a settler pump and will be for quite some time, after which it may make a nice worker pump .

d) when do you start to explore with ships? This is something I'm very weak at as I never find the time to kick out a curragh or something until later than AI.

Pretty soon. It would probably be my first build with the city that's about to be founded. Building a curragh will give the city a chance to grow a little while still being a fairly quick build. It's around time I mention that naval exploration in the AU mod has been severly reduced. Curraghs expend two naval points in sea squares and cannot enter ocean squares. Most civs should never enter the sea at all with a curragh as it will end its turn there, unless they are specifically trying to cross a 'sea bridge'. We can afford to jump across one tile of sea at the beginning of our turn as we have three movement points for our curraghs as a Sea. nation. Since you actually downloaded and installed the AU mod you can see these changes reflected in the Civpedia; you may also want to check it out.

[dmd175]

Re: Re: Developing our Byzantine empire

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Other than that I don't see the need for them too soon; maybe in a couple large cities when we're about to become (or recently became) a Republic, after marketplaces are up.

Just curious, you generally build mktplace before temple on higher levels. I find myself delaying mktplace in cities that are only making a few gold and especially if I don't have lux.

Creating a super science city (SSC) with both those wonders and eventually Cop's and Newt's would be a fun yet useful goal.

I always try to make a SSC. Wanted to confirm something I've noticed when I build Cop and Newton's...first time I did it I was looking for the science to outright double. But in fact the 2nd wonder only doubles the "base science", ie that part not including bonus of first wonder. I've noticed this same pattern with mkt-->bank-->stock exchange. If you have 15 to treasury with a mktplace, a bank gets you 20, and not 22.5.

Since you actually downloaded and installed the AU mod you can see these changes reflected in the Civpedia; you may also want to check it out.

Will do. Looking forward to my turns.